Lutherans and the Real Presence

[Semperviva]

A firend of mine is Ukrainian Orthodox and is dating a member of the "High Lutheran" church. He told her emphatically that Lutherans [b]do[/b] believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I told her, as I was under this impression, that Lutherans believe in "con-substantiation" in which Christ is truly present, but only spiritually around the particles of bread, whereas Catholics believe in "tran-substantiation", where the bread physically becomes Christ's body and not just a spiritual energy highly concentrated around the bread. Is that even what Lutherans believe???!!!!!!! I hope I dident make that up, lol. Whats up with this? Where did this con-substantiation belief have its origins?

[cappie]

Consubstantiation is a philosophical theory that, like the competing theory of transubstantiation, attempts to describe the nature of the Christian Eucharist in concrete metaphysical terms. It holds that during the sacrament the fundamental "substance" of the body and blood of Christ are present alongside the substance of the bread and wine, which remain present. Transubstantiation differs from consubstantiation in that it postulates that through consecration, according to some, that one set of substances (bread and wine) is exchanged for another (the Body and Blood of Christ) or, according to others, that the reality of the bread and wine become the reality of the body and blood of Christ. The substance of the bread and wine do not remain, but their accidents (superficial properties like appearance and taste) remain.

Consubstantiation is commonly—though erroneously—associated with the teachings of Martin Luther and Philipp Melanchthon. Lutheran teachings reject any attempt to explain philosophically the means by which Christ is present in the Eucharist. Luther did teach that the body and blood of Christ are present "in, with, and under the forms" of bread and wine, and present-day Lutherans hold to this statement while disagreeing about its exact meaning. Some Lutherans do use the term "consubstantiation" to refer to this belief, but the theology intended is not the same as the philosophical theory described above. Luther illustrated his belief about the Eucharist "by the analogy of the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged," a concept which he called "sacramental union." (Against the Heavenly Prophets (1525) and Confession Concerning Christ's Supper (1528) as quoted in The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, Ed., London: Oxford, 1958, p. 337). Consubstantiation is affirmed by a minority of Christians, including some Eastern Orthodox churches.

[pyranima]

Their is a more fundamental point i think. Lutherans do believe in a Form of the real presence, however so do Anglicans. The key to point out is that belief does not make it true, Just because i believe Christ is God does not make it true. that is proved not by my own personal belief but because it is a historical fact that a man named Jesus was born, preached for 3 years, said he was God put to death, and was raised. I know this not because the bible tells me so though it is a great historical ref. but because there are sources outside of the bible that support this, i also know that no one at the time denied that Jesus did the things he claimed to do or that he did not claim to be God. the evidence comes not from the dispute but rather the lack of that Christ did the things claimed by those who followed him (though some did develop later one would expect it in greater force than it appeared).

i say this again to point out just because i think something is true does not make it so, the final point here is this. the Lutheran minister does not have the Authority to transform in anyway the bread and wine, he does not have the proper ordination needed to make the bread and wine not bread and wine. The east has not defined Con or Tran so that point really is mute, however the question of authority is loud and valid.