Jesuspaidtheprice Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 How do Catholics explain that Mary is the mediatrix of all graces through scriptural or traditional proof? What logic shows that God would allow all "grace" to flow through Mary to man, and why would this be necessary? What function would it serve? Also, how does one quantify grace, God's favor towards man? I speak here of concepts such as indulgences. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 A simple way of looking at Mary as Mediatrix of all graces is to recognize that Christ came to the world through Mary, and so continues to grace the world through her. Christ is the Head of His Body, the Church; and Mary, so to speak, is the neck. All Christians (the Saints in Heaven, and those who pray on earth), are called to share and participate in the perfect mediation of Jesus. We are all called to be co-mediators—to act as a 'go-between' for another and Christ. In essence, this is what we do when another person asks us to pray for them. The goal of mediation is not to distance, but to reconcile. Furthermore, the Catholic Church does acknowledge and teach that ALL mediation is unconditionally dependent on the ONE perfect mediation of Jesus Christ (CCC 2664). 1 Timothy 2:5 does not exclude subordinate co-mediators (for prayer is a form of mediation, and just previously Paul exhorts the Christians to pray for him), but rather, 1 Timothy 2:5 excludes rival/opposing mediators. To have others participate in the perfect mediation of Christ does not obscure the glory of God, but rather further manifests it. Christians are obliged to participate in Christ's perfect sonship (and become adoptive sons of God through Christ—Galatians 4), and all are called to participate in the priesthood even though Christ is the only High Priest (etc.). Jesus is the one, perfect, Mediator, and Mary by her unique participation is called Mediatrix, and we (and the other Saints in Heaven) are tertiary co-mediators. Why/how does Mary have a unique participation? In Luke's Gospel Mary directly mediates 2 occasions of grace: Jesus' (the source of all grace) presence in her womb mediates grace to Elizabeth (when she is overshadowed by the Holy Spirit), and then to John the Baptist in the womb (who leaps). The Wedding at Cana in John 2:5 shows Mary mediating (/interceding) for Jesus' first public miracle & ministry. Lastly, Mediatrix is implicit in the term "mother"—mothers mediate, and intercede for their children (we see this all the time today). For Mary, as universal Mother this extends through Jesus to the rest of the Body of Christ (us, as Christians), and thus Mary is Mediatrix (co-mediator in a unique way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veni Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I believe that when explaining Mary as Mediatrix, some scriptural proof could include Paul's 1st Corinthians when he states that "we are God's coworkers" (3:9). God is fully capable of doing things on His own, but in raising children (us), the best way is to include them in your work and better ensure they grow up the way you want them to. So Mary, as Daughter, Mother and Spouse to our Trinitarian God plays an essential role in that cowork. If we are all called to work with God and with each other, leading each other closer to Christ, who better can play that role than His own Mother?!? And just like any good mom, she is always there ready to answer us and lead us closer to her Divine Son. Another aspect is, just like Christ, she understands human life. But unlike Christ, who was both True God and True Man, Mary was just "man" (yet conceived without sin=an immaculate human). And I believe after being assumed and crowned in Heaven, she is all more than eager to share God's graces with us. Just ponder the love she must feel for all of us. And for some traditional proof, there is more than enough to talk about. Sorry if some of this seemed alot like rambling, but Marian devotion is something special to me. And when it comes to indulgences, I have no clue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 indulgences are not 'quantified'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesuspaidtheprice Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 Plenary, partial, and X number of days per said prayer/work would leave one to believe otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 The Church does not put a numbered "quantity" on grace. Indulgences are not the equivalent of grace. I recommend looking up the definition of an indulgence (I think it's around CCC 1470 or so). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1021007' date='Jul 10 2006, 11:03 AM'] indulgences are not 'quantified'. [/quote] Well, the historical practice of indulgences did assign durations to partial indulgences. But, these durations did not represent an amount of time spent in purgatory. Instead, the time was used to compare the benefits of the indulgence with an earthly penance. Quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm"]link[/url]): [quote]A partial indulgence commutes only a certain portion of the penalty; and this portion is determined in accordance with the penitential discipline of the early Church. To say that an indulgence of so many days or years is granted means that it cancels an amount of purgatorial punishment equivalent to that which would have been remitted, in the sight of God, by the performance of so many days or years of the ancient canonical penance. Here, evidently, the reckoning makes no claim to absolute exactness; it has only a relative value.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 [quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1021037' date='Jul 10 2006, 12:33 PM'] Well, the historical practice of indulgences did assign durations to partial indulgences. But, these durations did not represent an amount of time spent in purgatory. Instead, the time was used to compare the benefits of the indulgence with an earthly penance. Quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm"]link[/url]): [/quote] Right, but indulgences and grace are not entirely equal. They have different meanings. Grace is far more expansive than an indulgence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesuspaidtheprice Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 [quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1021037' date='Jul 10 2006, 11:33 AM'] Well, the historical practice of indulgences did assign durations to partial indulgences. But, these durations did not represent an amount of time spent in purgatory. Instead, the time was used to compare the benefits of the indulgence with an earthly penance. Quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm"]link[/url]): [/quote] Hence, a quantification. Indulgence is merely an example of an act of grace of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 BTW, it might help for everyone to have the following encyclical handy: Redemptoris Mater (Mother of the Redeemer): [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...s-mater_en.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyranima Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 [quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' post='1020986' date='Jul 10 2006, 08:22 AM'] How do Catholics explain that Mary is the mediatrix of all graces through scriptural or traditional proof? What logic shows that God would allow all "grace" to flow through Mary to man, and why would this be necessary? What function would it serve? Also, how does one quantify grace, God's favor towards man? I speak here of concepts such as indulgences. Thanks. [/quote] I can prove it with ease its rather logical. Mary is the Mother of God, no one can dispute that. God chose the virgin Mary from all time to be the one to bring God into the world. Grace comes from God through Mary Christ came Through Mary thus God decided to bring Slavation through Mary. Without Christ there is no Salvation, without Mary there is no Christ thus without Mary there is no Salvation either. this is not to say that Mary's role in salvation is equal or more important than Christs. just as Eves fall was not more important than adams Fall. but Eve had her role and the New Eve has a role with the new Adam, sin was introduced into the world by Eve thus Salvation is introduced to the world by the new Eve and God continues to use the humble Mary she is the "Pencil in God's hand" Grace 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace 2 a : APPROVAL, FAVOR <stayed in his good graces> b archaic : MERCY, PARDON c : a special favor : PRIVILEGE <each in his place, by right, not grace, shall rule his heritage -- Rudyard Kipling> d : disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency e : a temporary exemption : REPRIEVE 3 a : a charming or attractive trait or characteristic b : a pleasing appearance or effect : CHARM <all the grace of youth -- John Buchan> c : ease and suppleness of movement or bearing 4 -- used as a title of address or reference for a duke, a duchess, or an archbishop 5 : a short prayer at a meal asking a blessing or giving thanks 6 plural, capitalized : three sister goddesses in Greek mythology who are the givers of charm and beauty 7 : a musical trill, turn, or appoggiatura 8 a : sense of propriety or right <had the grace not to run for elective office -- Calvin Trillin> b : the quality or state of being considerate or thoughtful synonym see MERCY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesuspaidtheprice Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 [quote name='pyranima' post='1021133' date='Jul 10 2006, 12:25 PM'] I can prove it with ease its rather logical. Mary is the Mother of God, no one can dispute that. God chose the virgin Mary from all time to be the one to bring God into the world. Grace comes from God through Mary Christ came Through Mary thus God decided to bring Slavation through Mary. Without Christ there is no Salvation, without Mary there is no Christ thus without Mary there is no Salvation either. this is not to say that Mary's role in salvation is equal or more important than Christs. just as Eves fall was not more important than adams Fall. but Eve had her role and the New Eve has a role with the new Adam, sin was introduced into the world by Eve thus Salvation is introduced to the world by the new Eve and God continues to use the humble Mary she is the "Pencil in God's hand" [/quote] By the mere fact that Mary gave birth to Jesus does not make Mary the mediatrix of all grace. The leap you are attempting is anything but logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I didn't include the next sentence after the Catholic Encyclopedia quote, but it might be useful: [quote]God alone knows what penalty remains to be paid and what its precise amount is in severity[/quote] [quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' post='1021055' date='Jul 10 2006, 11:41 AM'] Hence, a quantification. Indulgence is merely an example of an act of grace of course. [/quote]I don't think I'd agree that an indulgence is "merely an example of an act of grace." Are you talking about sanctifying grace or actual grace? If the former, you should know that an indulgence can do nothing to save someone from damnation. The purpose of an indulgence is to lessen or remove the suffering caused by purgatory:([url="http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=Kjv1Cor.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=3&division=div1"]See 1 Cor 3:15[/url]). To enter into heaven, we must be perfect. There are those who die in a state of Grace, who have "not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions" ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm"]Link[/url]). God gives us the opportunity to be made perfect though the cleansing fires of Purgatory and/or the merit of indulgences, whose value derives from the meritorious act of Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyranima Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 [quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' post='1021140' date='Jul 10 2006, 10:31 AM'] By the mere fact that Mary gave birth to Jesus does not make Mary the mediatrix of all grace. The leap you are attempting is anything but logical. [/quote] there is no leap think about it through eve all sin came. through Mary grace comes. its not that God NEEDS mary, but rather through her Salvation was brought and continues to be brought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 More stuff to quote: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MARY2.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MARY2.HTM[/url] This quote, in turn, refers (among other things) to Lumen Gentium, paragraph 62: [url="http://www.cin.org/v2church.html"]http://www.cin.org/v2church.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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