Turning the other cheek and self defense

[MissScripture]

It was brought up in the thread on the Crusades that we are called on to turn the other cheek. My question is, where does self-defense, or even more, defense of the vulnerable play into this? How do we reconcile these things? Are they reconcilable? Are we supposed to let other people walk all over us?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1024036' date='Jul 13 2006, 08:59 PM']
It was brought up in the thread on the Crusades that we are called on to turn the other cheek. My question is, where does self-defense, or even more, defense of the vulnerable play into this? How do we reconcile these things? Are they reconcilable? Are we supposed to let other people walk all over us?
[/quote]


Turning the other cheek is completely different than letting ppl walk all over us, it is standing our ground.

[jswranch]

If this scripture was meant to ban self defense, then Jesus would not have turned over tables in the temple and scared people away with a whip.

Edited July 14, 2006 by jswranch

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='St. Paul 1 Corinthians 9:26']

"... I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing."[/quote]

What more proof do you need? :

[Aloysius]

when someone strikes you on your cheek (not lifethreatening), you insult them by standing your ground and turning the other. basically "you wimp, I am not concerned by your threat at all because I have God on my side"

if your life or anothers' life is in danger, you ought not only stand your ground like that, but also stop the sin of murder from being completed through force if necessary. this is completely in line with the spirit of Christ's words here.

[DAF]

The reading form today was quite appropriate for this thread:

[quote name='Mt. 10:16-23']16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
17"Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes[/quote]

In other words, you're not called to be an oppressive brute, but don't be a doormat either. Aloysius iterated Church teaching very well.

[Chica_Catolica]

Props to Miss Scripture for starting a thread on a subject that's been weighing heavily on my mind recently

Aloysius' response makes sense, kind of. I mean, if someone hits me or something and I stand my ground, turning the other cheek, Aloysius said that doing so shows that I'm not concerned with the threat because God's on my side. I also had never thought of it as turning your other cheek is more of an insult, but that makes complete sense. But in an instance where my life is threatened Aloysius says that we should stop the sin, with force if necessary. (By the way, this is nothing against Aloysius...it's just a topic with which I've been struggling.) I don't understand or agree with that part. To me, that's kind of like saying "I trust God, BUT since my life is in danger, I'm going to take matters into my own hands, just to be sure." Shouldn't we just stand our ground like we do when our lives aren't in danger? God's always on our side, when our lives are threatened or not, so shouldn't we trust that He'll stop the sin of murder somehow IF that's His will? It always just brings me back to Jesus and how He acted. He allowed Himself to be beaten and whipped and ridiculed and whatever else, not once fighting back. He was crucified without putting up a resistance. Shouldn't we follow that example? I guess I'm just kind of adding a little twist to Miss Scripture's original. If Jesus didn't fight back in a time that we would probably consider in need of self-defense, why should it be any different for us when our lives are threatened?

[Didacus]

[quote]If you have to choose between cowardice and violence; choose violence.[/quote]

Mathama Ghandi

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Chica_Catolica' post='1024362' date='Jul 14 2006, 12:55 PM']
Props to Miss Scripture for starting a thread on a subject that's been weighing heavily on my mind recently

Aloysius' response makes sense, kind of. I mean, if someone hits me or something and I stand my ground, turning the other cheek, Aloysius said that doing so shows that I'm not concerned with the threat because God's on my side. I also had never thought of it as turning your other cheek is more of an insult, but that makes complete sense. But in an instance where my life is threatened Aloysius says that we should stop the sin, with force if necessary. (By the way, this is nothing against Aloysius...it's just a topic with which I've been struggling.) I don't understand or agree with that part. To me, that's kind of like saying "I trust God, BUT since my life is in danger, I'm going to take matters into my own hands, just to be sure." Shouldn't we just stand our ground like we do when our lives aren't in danger? God's always on our side, when our lives are threatened or not, so shouldn't we trust that He'll stop the sin of murder somehow IF that's His will? It always just brings me back to Jesus and how He acted. He allowed Himself to be beaten and whipped and ridiculed and whatever else, not once fighting back. He was crucified without putting up a resistance. Shouldn't we follow that example? I guess I'm just kind of adding a little twist to Miss Scripture's original. If Jesus didn't fight back in a time that we would probably consider in need of self-defense, why should it be any different for us when our lives are threatened?
[/quote]
if your life is threatened, you have the right to defend yourself. if it would be a more powerful witness not to, then leave it up to divine providence.

if another's life is threatened, you have the moral obligation to defend them. so long as the possibility of defending them exists, even with force, it would (under the usual conditions) be a sin not to.

but you certainly have the right, at any point, to go Obi Wan style and become more powerful than they could ever imagine. just don't get Luke killed in the process.

Jesus himself alluded to the power and right He had to defend Himself. At His word, swarms of Angels would have come to His defence and used force against all who threatened His life.

for a good perspective on the way Jesus and His Apostles acted, and the way the ordinary Christian should act, pick up G. K. Chesterton's biography of St. Francis of Assissi.

[DAF]

Yeah, it's a holy thing to defend your life, it's also a holy thing to sacrifice it in witness. Both are good, holy things.

[MissScripture]

So, as a brief summary, this is what I'm understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong:
1) If it's non-life-threatening, turn the other cheek
2) If it is life-threatening, either fighting back or turning the other cheek is alright.
3)If it is life threatening to another person, we are morally obligated to defend them, by the means necessary.
The one I'm the least sure of my understanding on is the third.


p.s. Aloysius, I like the Star Wars reference!

[MonkeyTape]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1024641' date='Jul 14 2006, 03:44 PM']
So, as a brief summary, this is what I'm understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong:
1) If it's non-life-threatening, turn the other cheek
2) If it is life-threatening, either fighting back or turning the other cheek is alright.
3)If it is life threatening to another person, we are morally obligated to defend them, by the means necessary.
The one I'm the least sure of my understanding on is the third.
p.s. Aloysius, I like the Star Wars reference!
[/quote]


1) I assume we're not discussing verbal attacks. For instance our witness is called for, in a sensible way - it wouldn't be sensible to escalate a situation to violence through our witness, when one insults or blasphemes God or His Church - which is generally non-life threatening.

2) I would say so. When only you are involved, then only you and God know the state of your soul, whether you are preapred for judgment and whether you are called to be a martyr.

3) Absolutely - we are told "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends." To keep that in perspective let's not forget "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God." De-escalate violence when possible - defend ourselves and others when we have to. I woudl stress that "lay down your life" has many aspects - dedicating ones life to service of others in charity or vocational calling, willing to sacrifice your life in physical defense, or just accepting that your actions in defense of another [b]may [/b]lead to death.

Be wary of just laying down your life in any situation. Not everyone is called to be a martyr, thinking that this is some kind of ultimate goal for all of us has led to some problems in the past. It can become a death wish or suicide rather than a martyrdom - or even go as far as some in Islam have taken it in seeking death.

Does this all seem reasonable?