apologetics- omnipotent

[bx_racer]

can anyone give apologetic proof of how God is omnipotent? i know its been put nicely before but i forgot the details. also, if God can't be evil, does that make him non-omnipotent?

[Mateo el Feo]

Start with the Catholic Encyclopedia on Omnipotence:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11251c.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11251c.htm[/url]

Also, look at St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, "Whether God is omnipotent?":
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102503.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102503.htm[/url]

[Justified Saint]

Perhaps your question is better phrased as "can one prove the existence of God?" One can certainly offer apologetic 'proofs' though I am less certain of so-called philosophical proofs.

[bx_racer]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1024727' date='Jul 14 2006, 04:04 PM']
Start with the Catholic Encyclopedia on Omnipotence:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11251c.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11251c.htm[/url]

Also, look at St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, "Whether God is omnipotent?":
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102503.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102503.htm[/url]
[/quote]

thanks, this helped. although i was looking more for something like: He has to be perfect or else He could change, but that's a contradiction because He is infinite. haha thanks though, the articles helped me meditate and remember.

[DAF]

[quote] He has to be perfect or else He could change, but that's a contradiction because He is infinite.[/quote]
Que? I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. :confused:

[bx_racer]

[quote name='DAF' post='1024779' date='Jul 14 2006, 06:07 PM']
Que? I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. :confused:
[/quote]

ok, well if God wasn't perfect, or omnipotent, that means He would be lacking something. And theoretically, He could change. However, since He is infinite, He is constant, and cannot change. That's kind of as best I can put it, if someone has a better way of wording it, go ahead. hope that helped. If it didn't tell me

Edited July 15, 2006 by bx_racer

[Thy Geekdom Come]

If God isn't omnipotent, God isn't God.

Oh, and evil is a privation of good. Therefore, God, who is all powerful, can't do evil because evil is not a thing per se. If it's not a thing, then you can't fault God (who can do all things) for not being able to do it.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I was curious as to how to respond to this challenge:
If God is all-powerful, can He create something He cannot lift?

It's been bugging me.

[pyranima]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1024728' date='Jul 14 2006, 04:05 PM']
Perhaps your question is better phrased as "can one prove the existence of God?" One can certainly offer apologetic 'proofs' though I am less certain of so-called philosophical proofs.
[/quote]
There are philosophical proofs, Philosophy is what brought me to Theism (the belief in God but not Christianity). when i discovered true Christianity i discovered their God was my God.

this is a very very very complex question one that i could write pages and pages on. but i will try to keep it simple.

Use these principles.
1) the big bang theory is highly probable
2) The Theory of Evolution should not be considered a Fact but should be taken quite seriously.

so then we ask the question

did the big bang always exist? the answer is no it did not.
if the big bang did not always exist there was a time when it was not. so we can say safely the big bang is the second cause.
What is the first cause? the First cause IS.
what does it mean to be the first cause? to be the first cause it must always be, it can have no begining, to have a begining implys that it was made by something else thus it would not be the first cause as the first cause is the cause of all other things. the first cause can also have no end because the first cause has no begining, to not begin is to not end. the first cause must also contain with itself the abiliy to exist outside of all other things it can draw on nothing for its own existance, to rely on something for your existance is to say that something existed before the first cause as without it the first cause could not exist(this would make the first cause the second cause because the first cause would spring forth from something else which then makes it the second cause).
The first cause which has not begining and no end, which exists in and of itself, which relys on nothing other than itself for existance caused the big bang. we call the first cause God.

The Myth of the Evil God. "if there is a God then God is evil"

Polytheism is out of the question so lets look a dualism and monotheism.

Dualism: Dualism states that there is a Good god and bad god, both hate eachother and both think themself right. however there are 2 problems. 1 which god is Good and which is Bad, to say 1 is good and the other is bad is to bring in a third element to judge the that third thing must be over them to be able to say one thing is good and the other bad. the second problem is this, think in terms of math the good god is 1 the bad god is -1 thus they cancel eachother out. nihilism.

Monotheism: in monotheism God must be either good or bad he cannot be both for the same mathematical reason dualism doesnt work. 1+ -1=0. evil is perverted goodness sex on its own is not bad, it can be very very good. however rape is bad, but the badness of rape relies on the goodness of normal healthy sex. there are many other examples i could give but you get the idea. as the first cause God is the source of all goodness and so when we look to him we find goodness and we find we are good. badness and evil are when we try to find goodness in ourselves without the assistance of God. God is ALL goodness thus goodness cannot exist outside of him. lets look at the two commandments of Jesus to understand this, Love the Lord your God, and Love your others. lets take God out of the picture for a moment and see what happens. in this view there is no objective source for love thus love become subjective what is good becomes a matter of opinion, thus it could be considered good to kill a child directly after birth because i saved it from a life of suffering. or it could be good to deny someone food because they are fat. and so on as far as the imagination goes.With God in the picture however God is seen as the source of all goodness so we turn to an objective source to know what love is and to know what goodness is, we love our neighbor not because we like them but simply because God made them, we want good for them because they come from goodness, it is because we love God we love what he makes. what is bad or evil is when something good trys to find goodness outside of the source of goodness." ...badness cannot succeed even in being bad in the same way in which goodness is good. Goodness is, so to speak, itself: badness is only spoiled goodness . . . Evil is a parasite, not an original thing." Lewis

"If the universe is so bad...how on earth did human beings ever come to attribute it to the activity of a wise and good Creator?" C.S. Lewis the problem of pain(On a side note Has anyone noticed that strict fundamentalist websites think lewis is the devil?). C.S. Lewis makes several Good points. one of which is that love comes from God and we are suppose to find love in God and through God C.S. Lewis puts it this way "Wickedness, when you examine it, turns out to be the pursuit of some good in the wrong way. You can be good for the mere sake of goodness; you cannot be bad for the mere sake of badness. You can do a kind action when you are not feeling kind and when it gives you no pleasure, simply because kindness is right; but no one ever did a cruel action simply because cruelty was wrong—only because cruelty was pleasant or useful to him. In other words, badness cannot succeed even in being bad in the same way in which goodness is good. Goodness is, so to speak, itself; badness is only spoiled goodness.…Evil is a parasite, not an original thing. " thus God cannot be bad.

you can also look at pascal's wager
God exists God does not exist
Wager for God Gain all Status quo
Wager against God Misery Status quo

If there is not a God and you are wrong you have nothing to loose, if god doesnt exist and you dont believe in him you also have nothing to loose.
If God does exist and you are right then you Gain eternal happiness, If God does exist and you are wrong... damnation.

[bx_racer]

[quote name='pyranima' post='1025182' date='Jul 15 2006, 08:05 PM']
There are philosophical proofs, Philosophy is what brought me to Theism (the belief in God but not Christianity). when i discovered true Christianity i discovered their God was my God.

this is a very very very complex question one that i could write pages and pages on. but i will try to keep it simple.

Use these principles.
1) the big bang theory is highly probable
2) The Theory of Evolution should not be considered a Fact but should be taken quite seriously.

so then we ask the question

did the big bang always exist? the answer is no it did not.
if the big bang did not always exist there was a time when it was not. so we can say safely the big bang is the second cause.
What is the first cause? the First cause IS.
what does it mean to be the first cause? to be the first cause it must always be, it can have no begining, to have a begining implys that it was made by something else thus it would not be the first cause as the first cause is the cause of all other things. the first cause can also have no end because the first cause has no begining, to not begin is to not end. the first cause must also contain with itself the abiliy to exist outside of all other things it can draw on nothing for its own existance, to rely on something for your existance is to say that something existed before the first cause as without it the first cause could not exist(this would make the first cause the second cause because the first cause would spring forth from something else which then makes it the second cause).
The first cause which has not begining and no end, which exists in and of itself, which relys on nothing other than itself for existance caused the big bang. we call the first cause God.

The Myth of the Evil God. "if there is a God then God is evil"

Polytheism is out of the question so lets look a dualism and monotheism.

Dualism: Dualism states that there is a Good god and bad god, both hate eachother and both think themself right. however there are 2 problems. 1 which god is Good and which is Bad, to say 1 is good and the other is bad is to bring in a third element to judge the that third thing must be over them to be able to say one thing is good and the other bad. the second problem is this, think in terms of math the good god is 1 the bad god is -1 thus they cancel eachother out. nihilism.

Monotheism: in monotheism God must be either good or bad he cannot be both for the same mathematical reason dualism doesnt work. 1+ -1=0. evil is perverted goodness sex on its own is not bad, it can be very very good. however rape is bad, but the badness of rape relies on the goodness of normal healthy sex. there are many other examples i could give but you get the idea. as the first cause God is the source of all goodness and so when we look to him we find goodness and we find we are good. badness and evil are when we try to find goodness in ourselves without the assistance of God. God is ALL goodness thus goodness cannot exist outside of him. lets look at the two commandments of Jesus to understand this, Love the Lord your God, and Love your others. lets take God out of the picture for a moment and see what happens. in this view there is no objective source for love thus love become subjective what is good becomes a matter of opinion, thus it could be considered good to kill a child directly after birth because i saved it from a life of suffering. or it could be good to deny someone food because they are fat. and so on as far as the imagination goes.With God in the picture however God is seen as the source of all goodness so we turn to an objective source to know what love is and to know what goodness is, we love our neighbor not because we like them but simply because God made them, we want good for them because they come from goodness, it is because we love God we love what he makes. what is bad or evil is when something good trys to find goodness outside of the source of goodness." ...badness cannot succeed even in being bad in the same way in which goodness is good. Goodness is, so to speak, itself: badness is only spoiled goodness . . . Evil is a parasite, not an original thing." Lewis

"If the universe is so bad...how on earth did human beings ever come to attribute it to the activity of a wise and good Creator?" C.S. Lewis the problem of pain(On a side note Has anyone noticed that strict fundamentalist websites think lewis is the devil?). C.S. Lewis makes several Good points. one of which is that love comes from God and we are suppose to find love in God and through God C.S. Lewis puts it this way "Wickedness, when you examine it, turns out to be the pursuit of some good in the wrong way. You can be good for the mere sake of goodness; you cannot be bad for the mere sake of badness. You can do a kind action when you are not feeling kind and when it gives you no pleasure, simply because kindness is right; but no one ever did a cruel action simply because cruelty was wrong—only because cruelty was pleasant or useful to him. In other words, badness cannot succeed even in being bad in the same way in which goodness is good. Goodness is, so to speak, itself; badness is only spoiled goodness.…Evil is a parasite, not an original thing. " thus God cannot be bad.

you can also look at pascal's wager
God exists God does not exist
Wager for God Gain all Status quo
Wager against God Misery Status quo

If there is not a God and you are wrong you have nothing to loose, if god doesnt exist and you dont believe in him you also have nothing to loose.
If God does exist and you are right then you Gain eternal happiness, If God does exist and you are wrong... damnation.
[/quote]

well, if theres no God and u believe in Him, you do lose out in things in this world, so you should be sure of Him. I really like the independent being argument, the one that states we're all dependent beings, and arent capable of sustaining our own existence so there has to be an independent being. I read it in a book that says it much better but i just kinda summarized it. Its pretty much the first cause argument.

[quote name='thedude' post='1025153' date='Jul 15 2006, 06:49 PM']
I was curious as to how to respond to this challenge:
If God is all-powerful, can He create something He cannot lift?

It's been bugging me.
[/quote]

dude check out the link above in mateo el feo's response, its very good. tell me if u still dont get it

[Laudate_Dominum]

when I saw this thread I thought you were saying that you're omnipotent when it comes to apologetics or something. That'd be sweet.

[bx_racer]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1025462' date='Jul 16 2006, 02:02 PM']
when I saw this thread I thought you were saying that you're omnipotent when it comes to apologetics or something. That'd be sweet.
[/quote]

haha that would