Once again I need help trying to defend / explain something...

[Ziggamafu]

I need clear, definitive, and easy-to-read references to the relationship between one's piety / holiness and the effecacy of one's prayers.

Thanks!

[Fides_et_Ratio]

James 5:16, I think, or thereabouts at least. Almost verbatim "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much"

[Ziggamafu]

Yeah, that was the first thing that popped into my head and out of my mouth. But what I really need is Church documents on the subject...

[phatcatholic]

go to the EWTN library and search for the word "prayer"

[Ziggamafu]

Hmm...still having a difficult time finding what I need.

I have a liberal Catholic friend who does not believe that a person's holiness affects the power of his or her prayers. This is probably why he rarely invokes the intercession of the saints. To him, God doesn't "keep score" - that is, he does not believe that people have higher and lower rewards in Heaven. This is also probably why he doesn't care much about venial sins or - though he would deny it - in some cases, writes them off entirely. He doesn't think that a conservative Catholic who is piously devoted to doctrine, Sacraments, and sacramentals is favored by God over someone who slothfully disregards or neglects such things as unimportant. I seriously think this makes him feel better about himself. Anyway, I'm sick of being mocked for using holy water and praying rosaries and the like and I want to prove that time, money, and effort sacrificed out of pious devotion to the Faith really is worthwhile. I want to prove that these things make our prayers more powerful to God.

Despite the fact that he is a self-proclaimed “wishy-washy liberal Catholic”, when something is pointed out in official Church documents he seems to take the point more seriously. Even if he still, in his words, “civilly disagrees” or “civilly disobeys”. I would to him to try to debate the issue on Phatmass, but he hates this place. I wonder why?

;-)

[Fides_et_Ratio]

the Sacred Scriptures are a Church "document"... arguably (mostly from Protestants probably) the first document of the Church.

Did you try the Catechism? (I'll start looking). For starters, try CCC 2737 and perhaps the opening of CCC 2745, CCC 2838 and following... I think the Compendium says something in the part of the Our Father about how we cannot be forgive if we do not forgive... this could be likened to prayer since prayer is a kind of relationship with God and this relationship is directly affected by sin and forgiveness.

[Sentientbaka]

All right I'm seriously pissed off Ziggamafu...

What Ziggamafu is refering to stands out a little like magic in my mind, or at least a what I see as a protestant idea that by the faithful remaining more pure they can better affect the out come of their prayer - to exurt some type of power over the outcome.

For example...

Grandma is dying, Catholic A and Catholic B both dont want grandma to die, so they fast, say the rosery, go to eurcharistic adoration for hours a day, all begging and pleading to god for grandma not to die. Grandma dies anyway. This was Gods will...

So what was the point did Catholic A and B do all that work for nothing? why didn't God save grandma?

Well to a protestant, they would begin going over what they did wrong, or what they did to offend God. If they only maybe fasted a little longer, or didn't have that one impure thought then maybe just maybe God would have saved grandma. This is VERY wrong and dangerous thinking, and is NOT church teaching at all. When we pray, we should be prayering for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry it out, so if grandma dies it was his will and not nessarily what WE did wrong. From the catholic encyclepida we learn:

"[b]In hearing our prayer God does not change His will or action in our regard, but simply puts into effect what He had eternally decreed in view of our prayer.[/b] This He may do directly without the intervention of any secondary cause as when He imparts to us some supernatural gift, such as actual grace, or indirectly, when He bestows some natural gift. In this latter case He directs by His Providence the natural causes which contribute to the effect desired, whether they be moral or free agents, such as men; or some moral and others not, but physical and not free; or, again, when none of them is free. Finally, by miraculous intervention, and without employing any of these causes, He can produce the effect prayed for."

Further more:

"[b]By prayer we acknowledge God's power and goodness, our own neediness and dependence.[/b] It is therefore an act of the virtue of religion implying the deepest reverence for God and habituating us to look to Him for everything, not merely because the thing asked be good in itself, or advantageous to us, but chiefly because we wish it as a gift of God, and not otherwise, no matter how good or desirable it may seem to us. Prayer presupposes faith in God and hope in His goodness. By both, God, to whom we pray, moves us to prayer. Our knowledge of God by the light of natural reason also inspires us to look to Him for help, but such prayer lacks supernatural inspiration, and [b]though it may avail to keep us from losing our natural knowledge of God and trust in Him, or, to some extent, from offending Him, it cannot positively dispose us to receive His graces.[/b]"

So purity is not achieved for the sake of making the effect of ones prayer come true, it is to better our relationship with God, to better bring the Kingdom of heaven to earth, and to increase our devotion. It is not God who needs prayer, but we who need it. Purity should not be undertaken for power, but for grace, for love, and to deepen our relationship to him. Though there are other supernaturel things that happen as we pray, it is all up to God to gift them.

With the bible verse quoted above, it is to say that in a sesiable world we naturally want to reward hard work, and God is no differn't in this regard. But still as Jesus taught "We are given the deal we are given" and we are taught Hardwork dose not gaurentee an outcome. Rather it should be done for everything but the outcome.

Now this dosen't supercede miracles rather strictly states that miracles are on God's terms and not ours. Thus if you are living a pious and devote life strictly so God will do as you ask of him, you may or may not be sorely dispointed.

Edited July 27, 2006 by Sentientbaka

[Ziggamafu]

[i]I think the following verses and quotes from catechisms all point to individual standings before God that merit - to greater or lesser degrees - rewards, blessings, and privileges to those who are righteous; and not only meriting varying rewards, blessings, and privileges in Heaven, but also on earth:[/i]

[b]Matthew 6[/b]
1 * "(But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in
order that people may see them; [b]otherwise, you will have no
[i]recompense [/i] from your heavenly Father.[/b]2 When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you,
as the hypocrites * do in the synagogues and in the streets to
win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have
received their reward.
3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand
know what your right is doing,
4 so that your almsgiving may be secret. [b]And your
Father who sees in secret [i]will repay you[/i].[/b]5 "When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who
love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners
so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have
received their reward.
6 But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the
door, and pray to your Father in secret. [b]And your Father who
sees in secret [i]will repay you[/i].[/b]7 * * In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think
that they will be heard because of their many words.

[b]MATTHEW 10[/b]
41 * Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet
will receive a prophet's reward, and whoever receives a
righteous man because he is righteous will receive a righteous
man's reward.
42 And whoever gives only a cup of cold water to one
of these little ones to drink because he is a disciple--amen, I
say to you, he will surely not lose his reward."

[b]Luke 6[/b]
22 Blessed are you when people hate you,
and when they exclude and insult you,
and denounce your name as evil
on account of the Son of Man.
23 Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, [b]your reward
will be great[/b] in heaven. For their ancestors treated the
prophets
in the same way.

[b]Sirach 51[/b]
29 Let your spirits rejoice in the mercy of God,
and be not ashamed to give him praise.
30 Work at your tasks in due season,
and [b]in his own time God will give you your reward[/b].

[b]Sirach 12[/b]
2 Do good to the just man and reward will be yours,
if not from him, from the LORD.

[b]Psalm 58[/b]
11 Then the just shall rejoice to see the vengeance
and bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked.
12 Then it will be said:
[b]"Truly there is a reward for the just;
there is a God [i]who is judge [/i] on earth!" [/b]

[b]Psalm 19[/b]
8 II The law of the LORD is perfect,
refreshing the soul.
The decree of the LORD is trustworthy,
giving wisdom to the simple.
9 The precepts of the LORD are right,
rejoicing the heart.
The command of the LORD is clear,
enlightening the eye.
10 The fear of the LORD is pure,
enduring forever.
The statutes of the LORD are true,
all of them just;
11 More desirable than gold,
than a hoard of purest gold,
Sweeter also than honey
or drippings from the comb.
[b]12 *By them your servant is instructed;
obeying them [i]brings much reward. [/i] [/b]

[b]Proverbs 22[/b]
3 The shrewd man perceives evil and hides,
while simpletons continue on and suffer the penalty.
4 [b]The reward of humility and fear of the LORD
is [i]riches, honor and life. [/i] [/b]

[b]Sirach 16[/b]
12 Great as his mercy is his punishment;
he judges men, [b]each according to his deeds[/b].
13 A criminal does not escape with his plunder;
a just man's hope God does not leave unfulfilled.
[i]14 Whoever does good has his reward,
which each receives according to his deeds.[/i]
15 Say not:"I am hidden from God;
in heaven who remembers me?
Among so many people I cannot be known;
what am I in the world of spirits?

[b]Sirach 2[/b]
8 You who fear the LORD, trust him,
and your reward will not be lost.

[b]Jeremiah 17[/b]
10 I, the LORD, alone probe the mind
and test the heart,
To reward everyone according to his ways,
[b]according to the [i]merit [/i] of his deeds. [/b]

[b]Wisdom 2[/b]
22 And they knew not the hidden counsels of God;
neither did they count on a recompense of holiness
nor discern the innocent souls' reward.

[b]Mark 9[/b]
41 Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because
you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose
his reward.
42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe
(in me) to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone
were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

[u]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/u]

GLOSSARY
Merit:
The reward which God promises and gives to those who love him and by his grace perform good works. One cannot “merit” justification or eternal life, which are the free gift of God; the source of any merit we have before God is due to the grace of Christ in us (2006).

[b]2200[/b] Observing the fourth commandment brings its reward:
"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long
in the land which the LORD your God gives you."8 [b]Respecting this
commandment provides, along with spiritual fruits, [i]temporal
fruits[/i] of peace and prosperity.[/b] Conversely, failure to observe it 2304
brings great harm to communities and to individuals.

[b]2006 [/b] The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed 1723
by a community or a society for the action of one of its members,
experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or
punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity 1807
with the principle of equality which governs it.

[b]2009 [/b] Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the
divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's
gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love,
making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the
promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good
works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before
us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62 604

[b]2015 [/b] The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is
no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual
progress entails the[b] ascesis and mortification [/b] that gradually lead 407,2725
to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes: 1438
He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning,
through beginnings that have no end. He never stops
desiring what he already knows.69

[u]CATECHISM OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT [/u]

Part III: THE DECALOGUE
Motives for Observing the Commandments
GOD'S GOODNESS INVITES US TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS

Nor should it be omitted that God has preeminently displayed His clemency and the riches of His goodness in this, that while He might have forced us to serve His glory without a reward, He has, notwithstanding, deigned to identify His own glory with our advantage, thus rendering what tends to His honor, conducive to our interests.
This is a great and striking consideration; and the pastor, therefore, should teach in the concluding words of the Prophet that in keeping them there is a great reward.28 [b]Not only are we promised those blessings which seem to have reference to [i]earthly happiness[/i], such, for example, as to be blessed in the city, and blessed in the field;[/b]29 but we are also promised a great reward in heaven,30 good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over,31 which, aided by the divine mercy, we merit by our holy and pious actions.

Part I: THE CREED
Article VII
TWO JUDGMENTS

In explaining this subject the pastor should distinguish two different occasions on which everyone must appear in the presence of the Lord to render an account of all his thoughts, words and actions, and to receive immediate sentence from his judge.
The first takes place when each one of us departs this life; for then he is instantly placed before the judgment-seat of God, where all that he has ever done or spoken or thought during life shall be subjected to the most rigid scrutiny. This is called the particular judgment.
The second occurs when on the same day and in the same place all men shall stand together before the tribunal of their judge, that in the presence and hearing of all human beings of all times each may know his final doom and sentence. The announcement of this judgment will constitute no small part of the pain and punishment of the wicked; whereas [b]the good and just will derive great reward and consolation [/b] from the fact that it will then appear what each one was in life. This is called the general judgment.*

***

The idea of magic is totally opposed to this. Magic suggests that a desire may be satisfied by one's own power and regardless of one's sinfulness.

[Sentientbaka]

[quote] Matthew 6
1 * "(But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in
order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no
recompense from your heavenly Father.2 When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you,
as the hypocrites * do in the synagogues and in the streets to
win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have
received their reward.
3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand
know what your right is doing,
4 so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your
Father who sees in secret will repay you.5 "When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who
love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners
so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have
received their reward.
6 But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the
door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who
sees in secret will repay you.7 * * In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think
that they will be heard because of their many words.[/quote]

Notice St. Mathew is refering to the father grating the reward here, as always the reward is entirely up to God. This fits in the with the idea of rewarding hard work, which is a naturel thing as I previously stated, but it is not definitive

[quote]22 Blessed are you when people hate you,
and when they exclude and insult you,
and denounce your name as evil
on account of the Son of Man.
23 Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward
will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the
prophets
in the same way.[/quote]

and we see the same in St. Luke. Once again the reward is up to the Father. Because we dont belive in a deceptful God it is only natural to be rewarded with our hard work, and once again we see the reward is instated by God, for God, and with God. This dose not state however to the idea of of purity causeing a greater maximum from prayer.

[quote]29 Let your spirits rejoice in the mercy of God,
and be not ashamed to give him praise.
30 Work at your tasks in due season,
and in his own time God will give you your reward[/quote]

And once again on Gods terms...

[quote]Psalm 58
11 Then the just shall rejoice to see the vengeance
and bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked.
12 Then it will be said:
"Truly there is a reward for the just;
there is a God who is judge on earth!" [/quote]

And we're seeing a theme here arn't we...

[quote]Sirach 16
12 Great as his mercy is his punishment;
he judges men, each according to his deeds.
13 A criminal does not escape with his plunder;
a just man's hope God does not leave unfulfilled.
14 Whoever does good has his reward,
which each receives according to his deeds.
15 Say not:"I am hidden from God;
in heaven who remembers me?
Among so many people I cannot be known;
what am I in the world of spirits? [/quote]

This isn't even in referance to the outcome of prayer.

[quote]2200 Observing the fourth commandment brings its reward:
"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long
in the land which the LORD your God gives you."8 Respecting this
commandment provides, along with spiritual fruits, temporal
fruits of peace and prosperity. Conversely, failure to observe it 2304
brings great harm to communities and to individuals.[/quote]

The definition of the word Temporal is "# Of, relating to, or limited by time: a temporal dimension; temporal and spatial boundaries.
# Of or relating to the material world; worldly: the temporal possessions of the Church. " or i.e honor your parents and you'll reap much benefit in this world...

and now some bible for you Ziggamafu

1 For the kingdom of heaven of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 And after agreeing with the workers for the standard wage, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 When it was about nine o’clock in the morning, he went out again and saw others standing around in the market place without work. 4 And he said to them, “You go into the vineyard too and I will give you whatever is right.” 5 So they went. When he went out again about noon and three o’clock that afternoon, he did the same thing. 6 And about five o’clock that afternoon he went out and found others standing around, and he said to them, “Why are you standing here all day without work?” 7 They said to him, “Because no one has hired us.” He said to them, “You go and work in the vineyard too.”

8 When it was evening, the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, “Call the workers and give the pay starting with the last hired until the first.” 9 When those hired about five o’clock came, each received a full day’s pay. 10 And when those hired first came, they though they would receive more. But each one also received the standard wage. 11 When they received it, they began to complain against the landowner, 12 saying, “These last fellows worked one hour, and you have made them equal to us who bore the hardship and burning heat of the day.

13 And the landowner replied to one of them, “Friend, I am not treating you unfairly. Didn’t you agree with me to work for the standard wage? 14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave to you. 15 Am I not permitted to do what I want with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous? 16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Three workers given the same deal for differn't amounts of work...

The cathechism is very specific when it comes to prayer and its roots in humilty. In 2559 it is stated that man is like a begger before god. Further shows that prayer is petetion, as in once again on Gods terms, and with his discernment. Once again the outcome is God's will which can be contrary or in occurdence to the outcome of our petetion, regardless of our state.

Now please don't get me wrong, Im not saying there is NO REWARD for hard work and purity. God has PROMISED us our reward in heaven but it should be pointed out these are God's terms and not ours. God dose not promise that we will change his will for us if we are really really good boys and girls. But God is NOT deceitful, it is only naturel to reward hard work (jeez how many times have I said that now), but once again it's God's terms not ours. I would be very slow to stay pure so I could have my prayer answered to win the lotery.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

James 5:16 "The prayer of a righteous man...."

[phatcatholic]

moved to the debate table

[Ziggamafu]

More examples of the greater power of pious & persistant prayer:

[b]luke 11[/b]
5Then he said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and he goes to him at midnight and says, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, 6because a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have nothing to set before him.' 7"Then the one inside answers, 'Don't bother me. The door is already locked, and my children are with me in bed. I can't get up and give you anything.' 8I tell you, though he will not get up and give him the bread because he is his friend, yet because of the man's boldness[e] he will get up and give him as much as he needs.

[b]luke 18[/b]
1Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they [b]should always pray and not give up. [/b] 2He said: "In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men. 3And there was a widow in that town who [b]kept coming to him with the plea[/b], 'Grant me justice against my adversary.'
4"For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, 'Even though I don't fear God or care about men, 5yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won't eventually wear me out with her coming!' "
6And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, [b]who cry out to him day and night[/b]? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

[b]matt 15[/b]
22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
28Then Jesus answered, [b]"Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.[/b]