Northern Ireland

[Bruce S]

Northern Ireland, a land tied to strife and interdenominational conflict. Guns, and hate.

Why?

Is it religion, culture, power stuggles?

A land where Catholicism is cheek and jowel with militant Protestanism.

Christianity in conflict, christians who have the baggage of history, but there are signs that this may be ending, some, on both sides, see that religion cannot define a countries future, may hold it back, keep investment out.

Let's talk about what is behind this, and what might be the solution. Many have lived in the USA, returned home, see how Catholics and Protestants peacefully co-exist here in the USA, and are asking for that to be the model there.

Who wants to start?

Edited January 5, 2004 by Bruce S

[Ellenita]

Well we might begin with my countries unashamed desire to rule the world and annex other countries against their will into the British empire.

It's impossible to see the situation in Northern Ireland as purely a conflict between the protestant and catholic faiths.

[Bruce S]

To a large degree, the world of Northern Ireland is mirrored in the town where I grew up.

Originally settled by Scots Irish [another name for Presbyterians originating from Ulster] seeking land, and later flooded with Irish Catholics, this area was a battleground too with religious strife, not on a fighting scale, but of ideas, money, and pecking order.

Here, just like there, you had an established Protestant power structure, and upstart new immigrants, of Catholic faith, seeking a piece of the pie, money, and a place in society.

However much the Catholics and Protestants disliked each other, and each other's religion, they didn't resort to armed conflict. So, it can be done, and was done.

The question remains ... why Northern Ireland devolved as it did, become THE example how NOT to live with Protestants/Catholics in the same small area.

Why?

[cmotherofpirl]

Remember Bruce we here were not landlocked like Ireland is. We could go west.

[Ellenita]

The armed conflict wasn't about being catholic or protestant though - religion became a by product (which was very useful of course to the politicians who have routinely and ruthlessly exploited that) of the original conflict, that is, who has the right to own the land - people who were born and raised there or people from outside who wanted to impose their right to subsume it into their empire. You say that armed conflict didn't occur between the Irish communities who were catholic or protestant in the US. No, you are probably right, though I don't know enough about the protestant Irish community in the US (it doesn't get the same media interest over here as the catholic community) to be really informed and able to comment on that point. However there is a clear example of armed conflict because of the land/empire argument in the early struggle of the indigenous peoples of the US in asserting their rights.

Incidently the media interest in the UK about the US Irish catholic community is very biased and presents stereotypical views in my opinion. That's largely as a result of the perception of the role of Noraid in the armed conflict.

[valley]

Northern Ireland is a long story. The problem really came about when with Elizabeth. The things done to Ireland during her reign and the subsequent rulers where truely atrocious.

The English have maintained their hold in Northern Ireland, and done so with militant ways. That is why there is the IRA, which started back around Elizabeth's time.

I beleive that Ireland should be given back to the Irish. I think that the Catholics and Protestants there can live peacefully if the English would pull out.

Like Paul McCartney said - Give Ireland Back to the Irish.

[PedroX]

Valley,

Which Elizabeth are you talking about? Queen Elizabeth I or QEII?

peace...

[Ellenita]

I believe that Ireland should be given back to the Irish. I think that the catholics and protestants there can live peacfully if the Englich would pull out.

While I might agree with the sentiments of this quote, I do think it is a simplistic argument. What happens to people such as Proud Protestant (read his post in another thread here) who lives in Northern Ireland but does not want to be called Irish....

Of course the irony for him is that should he choose to move to England he would be considered Irish by everyone and subject to the shameful racism which is often directed towards the Irish here.

Incidently I thought the IRA was formed following the division between the country of Ireland and the counties which were then used to form Northern Ireland at the turn of the last century. Do you have any references which show that the IRA existed before then?

I'm not suggesting that there was not armed resistance to the occupying forces before the formation of the IRA!

[NewReformation]

And give Scotland back to the Scots!

FREEEEEEEDOOOOOOM!

[Ellenita]

Brilliant idea! :D

[NewReformation]

Brilliant idea! :D

And while they're at it, I can take back my the land belonging to my clan. THE BUCHANNAN CASTLE WILL BE OURS ONCE AGAIN!!!!!!

[Bruce S]

POLITICAL power, under the guise of religion is essentially the battle that brought about the entire Reformation.

Without the Catholic Church becoming the "state" and having the power, financial needs, and power structure of an operating government in most places, the doctrinal disputes would have been settled or at least worked out peacefully.

Catholicism morphing into government was what Protestants rebelled against. The first Protestant, that had any sway, Wycliffe, was responding to the English not wanting to continue under the system of monetary extractions that the Vatican had in place, tithes, pardons, selling of offices, etc. This was true in all the area's where the Pope held sway. Some places, this extended to land holdings directly owned by the Vatican, and even armies used to enforce conformity at the point of a sword.

I think the Protestants feared the Vatican, and where they were ultimately able to wrest power away from the Vatican and church, they wanted to ensure that they would not again be forced back into submission.

This of course, led to the exact same thing when the Protestants were in power. Again, especially in the UK, religion became the state, with the King/Queen being the temporal head of a denomination.

As Lord Acton [sp?] said, "Power corrupts, ABSOLUTE power corrupts ABSOLUTELY"

And it does, religion can be used for subjegation and control, and too often has been.

[Ellenita]

And while they're at it I can take back my land beloning to my clan. The Buchannan castle will be ours again!

Oh my goodness, you're a Buchanan? I'm from the Buchanan clan!! We might be long lost relatives...... :D

[Proud Protestant]

Northern Ireland is a long story. The problem really came about when with Elizabeth. The things done to Ireland during her reign and the subsequent rulers where truely atrocious.

The English have maintained their hold in Northern Ireland, and done so with militant ways. That is why there is the IRA, which started back around Elizabeth's time.

I beleive that Ireland should be given back to the Irish. I think that the Catholics and Protestants there can live peacefully if the English would pull out.

Like Paul McCartney said - Give Ireland Back to the Irish.

Well I have news for you - I dont think "Ireland" should be given back to the Irish. Northern ireland is part of the UK - and it always will be. It has nothing to do with Elizabeth. Members ofr the IRA are sick individuals, whom claim they are trying to get a untied Ireland - then why murder many people, even people of their own religion.

I am a young member of northern ireland, and i will tell you - the prods wont stand back and let our country be handed back. It was decided many many years ago that the UK would keep control of N.Ireland.

I think it is silly to think that if Northern ireland was handed back we would all live in peace and harmony - get real. Protestants will keep Ulster for many years to come and we wont back down.

Sorry but i think you're wrong in some area's. Come live here and you'll see the action first hand.

[Proud Protestant]

"untied Ireland" - This should say "United Ireland"

[Bruce S]

This is a serious matter. And for now, most who know the history, will concede that Northern Ireland is fully, and competely part of the UK.

Of course, with the birthrate of Catholics higher than Protestants, and immigration, the number of Catholics are much greater than in times past.

Essentially, this mirrors the situation here in the USA, in the states of California and Texas. There too, you have large numbers of immigrant and native Catholics who are agitating for a RETURN of California and Texas to Mexico.

Using culture and religion, they want to reverse history, and move a territory from it's rightful owners [however that happened] and affiliate with a majority Catholic nearby entity.

Using violence [and yes, they have here too, but not as often] they want to achieve with force, what history has handed them.

Now, for the Protestants, they have to understand that Catholics are fully human and need to be included in all areas of power, that includes business, finance, and even the military.

Religous stife is rampant, it was normative in the period following the reformation, with BOTH sides killing and looting in the name of their respective doctrines.

Here in the USA, we more or less accept that everyone has a religious background, and that should not be the case for lording one brand over others. That is the "beef" atheists, Muslims, and other sects have with ALL Christians, despite our being formed as a Christian nation, they say, and rightly so, that we so dominate the culture that they have to put up with stuff we are shoving in their direction. And they may have a point, certainly this is a daily battle now in the courts.

[Proud Protestant]

"Now, for the Protestants, they have to understand that Catholics are fully human and need to be included in all areas of power, that includes business, finance, and even the military."

PILE OF $H!T

No harm to you - but the catholic's do this whole thing where they make out that they are the underdogs - rubbish.

They are in our government - they have 2 main parties Sien Fein (whom i absolutely despise as the members are self confessed murders that worked with the IRA. Martin Maguiness took part in Bloody Sunday And I cannot see why the British Government can allow murders to help run our country.) and the SDLP. They are equal in Business and finance, but the military is the big one!

The catholics despises our former police force named the RUC as they felt they were being treated 'unfairly' when realli the catholics would not co-operate at all with the forces. The force's name has since been changed to the PSNI. (RUC stood for Royal Ulster Constabulary) Some catholics have joined the new force, but most will not as it seems almost forbidden for a catholic to join. The catholics refuse to join the army and they have almost had our Army shut down - the Royal Irish Regiment.

They arent an innocent party and people need to realise that.

[Proud Protestant]

""but most will not as it seems almost forbidden for a catholic to join.""

I should repphrase that - some catholics DO want to join the police force, but cant as their families will disown them etc for seemingly joining a 'protestant' force.

[NewReformation]

Oh my goodness, you're a Buchanan? I'm from the Buchanan clan!! We might be long lost relatives...... :D

My mother and Maternal grandparents are Buchanans, so I've got it in me.

[cmotherofpirl]

AS a Stuart I demand the return of everything, including the throne of England. :D