OSAS

[thessalonian]

Okay, I asked the question is stealing a cooking and going on a killing spree equal? I got an answer from the guy I am debating who believes in Once Saved Always Saved that I never thought anyone would have the guts to say:


[quote]
If I were to go on a shooting spree and kill hunderds of people there is no dought in my mind I would go to heaven [/quote]


Can't find the jawdrop smiley. I am just plain flabberghasted that anyone would dare believe this or say it. Shocked is not sufficient to describe what I think of this guys theology.

[jswranch]

I guess he needs a barage of scriptures.

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

I betcha a moonpie this would be the answer a OSAS person would give:

If he repents of his sin and calls upon Jesus to forgive him, even he can be saved. This gentlemen would not be able to be saved by anything he can do but only by Jesus. Anyone who commits a crime like a killing spree however is not saved, his answer is inappropriate. A believer will bear good fruits, and would never go on a killing spree.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' post='1036474' date='Aug 2 2006, 02:57 PM']
I betcha a moonpie this would be the answer a OSAS person would give:

If he repents of his sin and calls upon Jesus to forgive him, even he can be saved. This gentlemen would not be able to be saved by anything he can do but only by Jesus. Anyone who commits a crime like a killing spree however is not saved, his answer is inappropriate. A believer will bear good fruits, and would never go on a killing spree.
[/quote]


That all sounds good in theory. But he says that stealing a cookie and killing someone is the same. So do believers go on cookie stealing sprees? How many cookies would be a spree by which a believer would not be a true believe if he took them. Or is cookie stealing something of a different category such that believers steal cookies but do not kill people. I.e. sin is not really all equal but he/you are afraid that in admitting the obvious you will start sounding Catholic. I'll be waiting for your reply.

[thessalonian]

Should stealing 15 cookies in 15 days make the 6 o'clock news? Dateline: Serial cookie stealer in New York. There was a drive by cookie stealing by an 8 year old in Upper Manhatan last night. Police are investigating. The perpetrator stands to be in prison for life! Sin is sin after all. We are to imitate Christ who was God who believe sin was sin I guess. He says it's just us that see them differently. They are not really different one from another.

Edited August 2, 2006 by thessalonian

[jswranch]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' post='1036474' date='Aug 2 2006, 01:57 PM']
I betcha a moonpie this would be the answer a OSAS person would give:

If he repents of his sin and calls upon Jesus to forgive him, even he can be saved. This gentlemen would not be able to be saved by anything he can do but only by Jesus. Anyone who commits a crime like a killing spree however is not saved, his answer is inappropriate. A believer will bear good fruits, and would never go on a killing spree.
[/quote]
Wait, I thought OSAS believed the killer is still saved even if he does not repent before death.

[b]Supposing he was sane, knew the evil of his action, had a full choice to kill or not to kill, and died immediately after the rampage (died while trying to kill person 17)....[/b]

1. He was never actually saved. Whatever actions he took in the past (baptism, sinner's prayer etc) were not performed with a contrite heart and therefore, are not valid. He will go to hell.

2. He is saved. He remains saved no matter what he does. Christ's sacrifice was so powerful, his followers cannot be separated from his love and heaven no matter what work the believer may have produced, even if he says he no longer believes. Christ took our sin upon the cross such that we are no longer guilty and deserve eternal punishment. He will go to heaven

3. He was once saved, but is no longer. He is saved no longer. He may have walked with Christ at some point through thought, word and deed, but now he has severed such relationship. Such severing probably occured slowly over time through other sins which eventually brought him to such evil action. He will probably go to hell.

As I understand, option 1 is your position for what OSAS believes. Option 2 is how I understand the OSAS position. Option 3 is the Catholic position. Correct me if I am wrong.

Edited August 3, 2006 by jswranch

[Dave]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1036611' date='Aug 2 2006, 07:53 PM']
Wait, I thought OSAS believed the killer is still saved even if he does not repent before death.

[b]Supposing he was sane, knew the evil of his action, had a full choice to kill or not to kill, and died immediately after the rampage (died while trying to kill person 17)....[/b]

1. He was never actually saved. Whatever actions he took in the past (baptism, sinner's prayer etc) were not performed with a contrite heart and therefore, are not valid. He will go to hell.

2. He is saved. He remains saved no matter what he does. Christ's sacrifice was so powerful, his followers cannot be separated from his love and heaven no matter what work the believer may have produced, even if he says he no longer believes. Christ took our sin upon the cross such that we are no longer guilty and deserve eternal punishment. He will go to heaven

3. He was once saved, but is no longer. He is saved no longer. He may have walked with Christ at some point through thought, word and deed, but now he has severed such relationship. Such severing probably occured slowly over time through other sins which eventually brought him to such evil action. He will probably go to hell.

As I understand, option 1 is your position for what OSAS believes. Option 2 is how I understand the OSAS position. Option 3 is the Catholic position. Correct me if I am wrong.
[/quote]

Actually, those who believe in OSAS fall into either the group that believes #1 or the group that believes #2. Oh wait, I think one can add a 3rd group -- those who would say that MAYBE he went to heaven because he was sincere when he prayed the sinner's prayer, but then again MAYBE he wasn't sincere and thus went to hell.

[thessalonian]

Thx dave, you just reminded me of my favorite arguement I haven't used in a long time for OSAS. They do not believe in infallible interpretation. Okay, so they believe the scriptures say OSAS, i.e. we are 100 % certain of our salvation. But they are not 100% certain of their interpretation of scripture. Even if they are as much as 95% certain of their interpretations, they are in a logical conuncrum. They are not logically 100% assured of their salvation. Therefore it is not assured.

[Lahecil]

I think we need to determine just how many cookies are worth a human life.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1036841' date='Aug 3 2006, 10:23 AM']
I think we need to determine just how many cookies are worth a human life.
[/quote]
That's the ultimate question.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Dave' post='1036643' date='Aug 2 2006, 08:30 PM']
Actually, those who believe in OSAS fall into either the group that believes #1 or the group that believes #2. Oh wait, I think one can add a 3rd group -- those who would say that MAYBE he went to heaven because he was sincere when he prayed the sinner's prayer, but then again MAYBE he wasn't sincere and thus went to hell.
[/quote]

Option 1 is what I hear most often as well. Let me add option 4: "When you are saved, you are forgiven of all past [u][b]and future[/b] [/u] sins". My favorite response to this would be that my washing my car [u][b]today[/b] [/u] does not clean off the bird droppings that will fall on it [u][b]tomorrow[/b] [/u].

[jswranch]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1036861' date='Aug 3 2006, 08:58 AM']
Option 1 is what I hear most often as well. Let me add option 4: "When you are saved, you are forgiven of all past [u][b]and future[/b] [/u] sins". My favorite response to this would be that my washing my car [u][b]today[/b] [/u] does not clean off the bird droppings that will fall on it [u][b]tomorrow[/b] [/u].
[/quote]


Your option 4 is already part of my option 2 when I said, 'Christ took our sin upon the cross such that we are no longer guilty and deserve eternal punishment.' Your explanation would be a good addition thought.