Selfish?

[Sojourner]

Some friends and I were having a discussion last night that I'd like to get some feedback on.

To lay the groundwork, a little background:
A couple has six children. Dad is a teacher in a private Christian school, mom is a stay-at-home mother. Both have masters degrees. The kids are all enrolled in the private school, albeit at a reduced rate. Dad's salary less than $40,000, or very close to that. Up until recently, the family was able, with careful budgeting, to totally cover all financial obligations. However, changes in the school's health insurance plan proved to be too great a strain on the family budget, and so the children are now covered through a public health plan. The family is also on WIC, and through that program receive some food -- milk, coagulated milk, vegetables, etc.

So last night, one friend expressed frustration at this family receiving public assistance. There are, he said, scarce resources available, and he believes those resources should be directed to those who "really need it": single moms who have no support systems in place (unlike this family, who has a strong network of support both in terms of family and friends), or families unable to find work, or who don't have the educational background and skills to get good-paying jobs. This family's choice to continue having children is fine, my friend said, but by coupling that choice with a refusal to seek a better-paying job through which all the children could be supported wtihout receiving assistance, this couple is exhibiting selfish behavior.

Public resources should be reserved for those who have a legitimate reason to receive assistance, he said. This family has chosen to be poor and to receive public assistance, and while my friend has every respect for this couple's parenting ability, standing in the community, and so on, he sees this decision, given the resources available to this couple, as being selfish, and as taking resources from those more deserving of it.

Thoughts? Comments?

[homeschoolmom]

I wish I had taught at that Christian school-- nearly $40K and health benefits?? wow...

(I'm still pondering the question)

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1036780' date='Aug 3 2006, 08:30 AM']
I wish I had taught at that Christian school-- nearly $40K and health benefits?? wow...

(I'm still pondering the question)
[/quote]
LOL ... I think his salary actually may be less than that but I just don't know.

[Anomaly]

Hard to say without more details.
You seem to say all 6 kids in school? What does the Mom do during school? She obviously was graced with intelligence to earn a Master's degree. What is she doing with her abilities when all her time is not needed for the kids?
I wonder about the Dad working in a private Christian school. Is it as a teacher? Could he pursue a job in the Christian School sector and make more $$ with his Master's degree?

I expect effort to the maximum of their abilities and respect a stay at home mom should be available when the kids are home. I have no problem with WIC supporting struggling families like these people, provided they are working to the max of their abilities.

But... I've been poorer than that. My wife and I are not college educated. Sent our kids to Catholic schools at reduced rates. My wife volunteered during school hours at the school to be an at-home mom when kids were around and had a part time, work-at home job, and we never got a dime from the government for food or health care.

I would think two people with Master's degrees should be able to increase their income and still make the choices to work at a Christian school, be home for the kids, etc. They have been graced already with the brains, time, and resources to obtain two college degrees for the family. I think they must be obligated to maximize their potential within their principles of caring for the kids first and having a "stay at home" parent who's main priority is to be a parent.

[Budge]

I think that parents like that should think of the children they already have.

In my last Catholic church there was a lady who had 13 children....she was Novus Ordo but did not believe in any birth control including NFP.

They were very poor, food stamps, welfare, the whole nine yards and the church provided much for them. Most of the kids left home by age 16 as soon as they could get a job, and none went on to college.
They also lived in a 2 room house, [I knew this lady pretty well and her friends] and wouldnt even have a car except they got help from the church for an old van.

She almost had a nervous breakdown having baby #14 at the age of 44. Remember her in fact saying how exhausted she was and she was crying to me and another friend. She also has one disabled child...that requires constant care.

My friend said to her, you need to stop having babies. I was understanding but didnt want to make her feel worse. I almost wanted to tell her to barricade the bedroom door but didnt for that reason. I felt her husband cared nothing about her needs and the older children in the family were the real parents...I noticed the 14 year old was the constant care taker of that newest infant.

I lost contact with her since then, but I know shes had two more babies. [up to 16] {which ironically is extreme fertility for a 40 something}

I think there is a point where people cross the irresponsible line. I think your friend is correct about the people with 6 kids. These parents need to take consideration of the needs of the children they ALREADY have too. Kids will suffer eating nothing but canned green beans, and ramen noodles--cheap food from the church food pantries.
I suppose God will have to look out for kids like this, if their parents arent interested in the job.

I have seen that family with 16 kids on TV, I think it is great, they can more then provide for their kids, and the Mom has good health despire repeated pregnancies. So I have nothing against large families.

Edited August 5, 2006 by Budge

[homeschoolmom]

I think each family needs to find the balance between responsibility and generousity.

[Donna]

Sojourner,

Your friend cannot know all the pertinent info about the lives of these parents.

I think it's unwise for your friend to judge this. Maybe he'll take the matter up in prayer with our Lord.

[Anomaly]

I don't think the friend was making a 'judgement'. It's a good question.

How are these people utilizing what abilities God gave them, following their moral principles, and obeying God in fulfilling their responsibilites to society and family?

[Budge]

The problem here is this is a male friend, biblically another man should not get inbetween a husband and wife. I think he should go talk to the husband if at all possible if he is friendly with him but this must be done very delicately.

Your friend could be wrong about the husband refusing to seek a better paying job.

Many people desire better jobs but dont have them.

Edited August 8, 2006 by Budge

[littleflower+JMJ]

If their on WIC, they have to qualify for it.

And if they are, then there is no reason why they shouldn't be recieving the services if they went through the process and got granted assistance.

I agree with Donna. No matter how much you think you know a family, when it comes down to it, you don't. You cannot make conclusions by just what and how things appears. Nobody knows their bills, payments or other money factors in order to really say if they are selfish for being in the situation they are in.

Also, I really doubt his income is that high. There is no way a private school will pay that much. lol In the teaching field, your paycheck is NOT that big, especially in private school lol.

Most schools pay you a small fraction of the state public school income. So I would assume it is not that much as you might think it is, certainly not 40,000, especially if he's paying for his kids to be in private school at the same time. (I'm sure the "reduced rate" is still a hefty number) And I don't think he's failing to find a better job because you can't really get much bigger and better in the education world. Even with a Master's. And thats talking about if you were teaching in the public school system too.

In fact, WIC looks at your income from A to Z, so there might be alot less than you think if thats the case.

[corban711]

while i do believe that parents must do everything in their power to responsibly provide for the family, i do not believe that kids need many things that most people tend to consider important in their lives. there is absolutely nothing wrong with living very simply, as long as they are living within their means, necessities are provided (food, clothing, shelter, etc.) and they believe that to be the state of life that God has indeed called them to live in. if in fact they believe after prayer and discernment that God is asking them to have more kids, than they should move forward with great trust in His Providence to take care of them. however, i will say...sometimes God's Providence might be that they might take a higher paying job elsewhere (if available) so as to better provide. if that is the only job they can get in order to provide...that is fine. that is where God has placed them. keep in mind the saying of St. Alphonsus (or maybe st. ignatius...but it is one of those two) "Work like everything depends on you but pray like everything depends on God".

i don't see that as selfish to take aid. i would see it as selfish IF it was mixed with a a healthy dose of laziness or just didn't want change or something like that. but if the parents are working hard and that is what they have...there is great dignity in poverty and simplicity. and i wholeheartedly agree with flowery...if they can qualify...there is an obvious need there. so there should be no problem accepting aid.

[Deeds]

[b]From the information provided[/b], I agree with the friend. Most families I know can't afford to have the mother stay at home, let alone do that and put six children through private school. They have chosen this lifestyle and I don't think it's right to depend on the government to fund it.

[Anomaly]

The Government subsidy isn't unlimited and we have a responsibility to only take what we truely need.

Could this couple utilize their educations better and earn better money so that more $$ could be used to increase aid to the elderly or those who were not able to afford the education these people have.

Consider the plight of a widow who has outlived her children and is living on minimal social security. She is quite unable to do anything to increase here income.

Consider the plight of a woman and 3 children that have escaped an abusive husband and must now provide for them without the benefit of an education, a spouse, etc.

Only take what you truely need. I think the question was considering if they truely have a need for government subsidy that is equal to others that don't have the opportunity to make choices.

[littleflower+JMJ]

What I think is another possiblity is the dad of the family is willing to stay at this school to allow his children to attend a private school (something I know of many parents who did) and is willing to make sacrifices to make ends meet and seek out other sources in order to make it possible.

Maybe he's first concern is his children's education and giving them a safe and protected environment. And with just a couple of children in a private school, that can easily be expensive.

He might have to work and get the reduced rate in order to make that happen. Maybe his only choice possible to pay and have your children at this private school is to work there, and get a reduced rate.

You might get a better job but what about your children's education if you still can't pay for it and no longer can contribute to its payment like you use to? It might be the only way he can assure his children's schooling and might do whatever he takes to give assure that.

Obviously this father is given an opportunity to work for the school and get his children a good private school education and might value that over getting a higher paying job where he might loose the ability to pay if he was not working there and had to pay full price.

Some parents value their children's education that they're willing to jump through hoops to make it possible.

Just something I know can happen.

[homeschoolmom]

But (and I'm just you know, tossing this out for debate) should this family continue to purposely have children that they cannot support without gov't assistance?