Budge

[Budge]

The problem with Catholicism and while there is so much confusion is it has no foundation but ITSELF.

a church is to be tested BY God's WORD {this is how we know if we are being taught falsely and the Bible teaches us how to test the spirits}

NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Budge' post='1039662' date='Aug 8 2006, 07:39 AM']
The problem with Catholicism and while there is so much confusion is it has no foundation but ITSELF.

a church is to be tested BY God's WORD {this is how we know if we are being taught falsely and the Bible teaches us how to test the spirits}

NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!
[/quote]

The interaction between Scripture, Tradition, and Magesterium naturally entails a kind of circularity, but it is not the vicious circularity of private interpretation and Sola Scriptura.

Catholicism is like a system of checks and balances while some forms of Protestantism are unbridled (spiritual, intellectual etc.) tyranny.

[Budge]

[quote]The interaction between Scripture, Tradition, and Magesterium naturally entails a kind of circularity, but it is not the vicious circularity of private interpretation and Sola Scriptura.[/quote]

Yes circular logic forms the underpinnings of Rome.

Really they look to themselves as the base of all belief [u]by adding their traditions of men and their own leadership as being equal to Gods Word.[/u]

it is a shame you dont realize how blasphmous that is.

Honestly what do you have to test the teachings of Rome by?

Really nothing because they teach you-- you are not to compare their teachings with that of scripture.

Do you realize that one commonality of false religions is that the guru, leadership and more are never to be questioned?

They have full power and no accountability. {well they really will have that one day when they face God for deceiving so many millions}

Im going with Gods Word over the circular logic that forms the underpinnings of Roman Catholicism confusion. I feel sorry for you folks how your hearts have been chained away from Gods life changing Word.

[size=5]Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.[/size]

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Budge' post='1039679' date='Aug 8 2006, 08:01 AM']
Yes circular logic forms the underpinnings of Rome.

Really they look to themselves as the base of all belief [u]by adding their traditions of men and their own leadership as being equal to Gods Word.[/u]

it is a shame you dont realize how blasphmous that is.

Honestly what do you have to test the teachings of Rome by?

Really nothing because they teach you-- you are not to compare their teachings with that of scripture.

Do you realize that one commonality of false religions is that the guru, leadership and more are never to be questioned?

They have full power and no accountability. {well they really will have that one day when they face God for deceiving so many millions}

Im going with Gods Word over the circular logic that forms the underpinnings of Roman Catholicism confusion. I feel sorry for you folks how your hearts have been chained away from Gods life changing Word.

[size=5]Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.[/size]
[/quote]


You misunderstand, a certain kind of circularity is necessary -- we just need to disabuse ourselves of the vicious circularity of Sola Scriptura.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The Church compiled the Bible. Without the Church, we have loads of early writings and no idea which ones are inspired.

[SJP]

Just curious,

Did Budge or Eutychus tell us where the bible came from, or how they know which books belong in the bible? Maybe it's in another thread??? I can't seem to find it.

[Eutychus]

[quote] Did Budge or Eutychus tell us where the bible came from, or how they know which books belong in the bible? Maybe it's in another thread??? I can't seem to find it.[/quote]

You didn't know? Odd, I thought everyone did.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jude, James, Paul and perhaps Barnabas or Apollo { Hebrews } and of course Jesus Christ as the spokesperson in Revelation.

There, does that help you out at all? Oh, none of them were in your denomination by the way.

And we have that supporting role being played by the Holy Spirit of course.

Edited August 9, 2006 by Eutychus

[SJP]

Actually, I wasn't asking the question to be sarcastic, I had noticed that you had not fully responded to the original question.


"You didn't know? Odd, I thought everyone did.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jude, James, Paul and perhaps Barnabas or Apollo { Hebrews } and of course Jesus Christ as the spokesperson in Revelation."

Perhaps you could expand on this answer. How was the Bible compiled? Did the NT writings perhaps coincide with the Traditions of the first Christians?

"And we have that supporting role being played by the Holy Spirit of course"

Sorry, but I will once again need clarification. Who do you mean by "we", which one of the thousands of Protestant denominations are supported by the Holy Spirit? If God is Truth, then how can the Truth tell a lie, or a few thousand lies for that matter?

[SJP]

How can it be that all Protestant denominations are supported by the Holy Spirit when we know all too well that Protestants disagree with each other on fundamental issues? Does the Holy Spirit lie?? Of course not, so how can Protestants claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit when they teach doctrines that are completely opposed to one another. You can't all be right. There can only be one Truth.

It is not my intent to engage in name calling of any sort, I'm really curious to know how Protestants reconcile this obvious problem. Should a person trust the Baptist Church? the Methodist Church? The Pentecostal Church? They all appeal to the same authority (the Bible) but teach different things.

Lets engage in an honest charitable discussion

[Seven77]

[quote name='Budge' post='1039662' date='Aug 8 2006, 08:39 AM']
The problem with Catholicism and while there is so much confusion is it has no foundation but ITSELF.

a church is to be tested BY God's WORD {this is how we know if we are being taught falsely and the Bible teaches us how to test the spirits}

NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!
[/quote]

Brother Budge---[b]a challenge[/b]: test the Catholic Church by God's word. You ought to know God's word backwards and forwards.

And for the record:

1 Tim.3[15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in [b]the house of God, which is the [u]church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth[/u][/b]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1040307' date='Aug 9 2006, 01:26 PM']
You didn't know? Odd, I thought everyone did.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jude, James, Paul and perhaps Barnabas or Apollo { Hebrews } and of course Jesus Christ as the spokesperson in Revelation.

There, does that help you out at all? Oh, none of them were in your denomination by the way.

And we have that supporting role being played by the Holy Spirit of course.
[/quote]Why not the book of Thomas? Who and How did they choose which letters and writers well after they were dead? What basis do you have to state they weren't in the Catholic's 'denomination'? Come on buddy.

[Mitchell_b55]

[quote name='Budge' post='1039679' date='Aug 8 2006, 11:01 AM']
Yes circular logic forms the underpinnings of Rome.
[/quote]

You easily debase and misunderstand our friend Justified Saint.
He clearly explained himself, but it appears that your understanding has come short.
Our dear sir, Justified Saint said that a circular logic exists, but not a contradictory logic. It is private interpretation that causes a vicious circle to form.

I would like to charitably lay it out, and hope that you do not attempt to hang, draw, or quarter me like you have lovingly done to my brethren, even though they have not tried to offend you, but offer intelligent reasons for there unwavering conviction.

I offer the following consideration:

My name is Maximilian and I am a theological student at a Presbyterian University, I have a near encyclopedic knowledge of scripture and feel that I am justified in my personal understanding. I have been tutored since the age of reason, by my mother a Presbyterian minister. I have a room-mate who is a Roman Catholic, and while he is attending a Presbyterian University and not taking the Theology courses, he is insistent on defending his obviously hopeless position. I know that Catholics have a standing tradition, an ignorance of scripture, and no believable biblical foundation. However my room-mate is extremely bright and he seems to have a very good knowledge of scripture. He offers quotations that spring from the pages of scripture, in fact he doesn’t even resort to the apocrypha, which is interesting considering the implication they possess for his belief. To top this, his quotes are in the purest King James English. It seems that he has support for everything from Transubstantiation to the obscurest doctrine. Each doctrine is explained using Biblical quotations. What is more is that the fabric he weaves parallels the Old Testament, makes inconceivable connections between Old and New Testament Passages, provides sound Apologetics. Each argument flung at him is carefully reconciled. I argue that his interpretation is wrong; he says that he is simply using his own private judgment in the matter. I sneer that isn’t how private interpretation works, you just can’t interpret it any way you want. He responds, “I understand I simply have to privately interpret it the way the Protestants want it interpreted.” I looked at him and get hostile and tell him to take his baseless arguments elsewhere. As he whisks away down the hall of the dormitory passage I admit he’s right.

[quote]Really they look to themselves as they base of all belief by adding their traditions of men and their own leadership as being equal to Gods Word.[/quote]

Perhaps you have never heard of the proverb I oft quote. “Once the fabric is woven it may be embellished at will.”

Embellish - to make beautiful with ornamentation.

While I do believe that the Church has absolute authority over the Sacred Scriptures, I will take your position for the sake of effect.

The Bible possesses all that is necessary for salvation, I agree with this. Most Catholic Doctrine is supported by Scripture or human reason. I also accept the Churches Authority as shown in Scripture, thus if that authority wishes to embellish simple truths, then I accept that embellishment. The definition above, replace beautiful with the word clear, and ornamentation with definition. It isn’t so unreasonable is it?

[quote]It is a shame you don’t realize how blasphemous that is.[/quote]

We do that is why we don’t do it.

[quote]Honestly what do you have to test the teachings of Rome by?[/quote]

Faith and Reason and if you wish the Scripture.

Really nothing because they teach you-- you are not to compare their teachings with that of scripture.

[quote]Do you realize that one commonality of false religions is that the guru, leadership and more are never to be questioned?[/quote]

The Popes are questioned and have been, but only in extreme cases, because no Pope has taught something a Catholic would disagree with.

[quote]They have full power and no accountability. [Well they really will have that one day when they face God for deceiving so many millions.][/quote]

I love your ability to judge the souls of men as if you were God.

[quote]I’m going with God’s Word over the circular logic that forms the underpinnings of Roman Catholicism confusion. I feel sorry for you folks how your hearts have been chained away from Gods life changing Word. [/quote]

On the contrary you have been chained, chained to your own denial of authority and reason.

[quote]Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.[/quote]

We do not obey men, we obey the Holy Spirit working through men, just as you obey the Holy Spirit working through the Scriptures written by men.

In Christ,

Petrus Scholasticus.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1040307' date='Aug 9 2006, 01:26 PM']
You didn't know? Odd, I thought everyone did.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jude, James, Paul and perhaps Barnabas or Apollo { Hebrews } and of course Jesus Christ as the spokesperson in Revelation.

There, does that help you out at all? Oh, none of them were in your denomination by the way.

And we have that supporting role being played by the Holy Spirit of course.
[/quote]
So by what authority do we know that these writings are divinely inspired, and not other writings, such as the Gnostic "gospels"?

As I asked in another thread (and received no answer):

[quote][b]This brings up the question: How do we know what writings are God's Word? How do we know which are not?
There were many religious writings circulating around at the time of the Early Church. How are we to know which writings are indeed God's Word, and which are vain deceptions?
Where did the Bible, God's Word itself, come from?
From what authority are we to believe that the books contained in the Bible are indeed God's Word?[/b][/quote]
There is nothing in Scripture itself to tell which which books do and don't belong in the Bible. This decision was made by the authority of the Church. The Church gave us the Bible, not the other way around.

[Eutychus]

[quote] So by what authority do we know that these writings are divinely inspired, and not other writings, such as the Gnostic "gospels"?[/quote]

Odd, do you read your own book?

Even Peter, in his writings, alludes to the authority of Paul, and calls Pauls letters SCRIPTURE within his letters.

And if pope numero UNO was calling Paul's letters scripture, while Peter and Paul were still alive, why is that such a stretch for you to KNOW that all the others, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were too?

Do you HONESTLY think they were so stupid then, that people sat around for 300 years waiting for some guys to VOTE on things?

Give God some credit here guys, and the Holy Spirit too, sheesh.

[ReinnieR]

so if i was around in the 1st century and wrote something, said i have divine revelation and call it scriptures, these writings will be in the bbile today??

wow