what is saving faith

[dairygirl4u2c]

Below is a letter I like to send and ask of random pastors. I usually get them tongue tied. I'm not really unsure, as far as my belief goes, I believe the same thing the CC teaches (at least that it currently teaches... but that's another long long thread), that you have to do what you know is right, always pushing to God, and that's all that matters. I suppose I like to egg others on and make them think. But anyways I would like some responses here at phamass, especially from non-Catholics.


[quote]Hello:
I have a general question below. I have asked several pastors and get varying answers. Your answer is greatly esteemed.

Saving faith.
Let me give you a line of thinking I spoke to a pastor once to best illustrate my question. He said what must I do to be saved. Repent and believe in Jesus. What does believe in Jesus mean I asked? The pastor said that you must believe that Jesus was the Son of God and God, that
he rose from the dead, that he is savior, that he was a sacrafice, that he intercedes, and I think some other things…

I said that sounds sorta dogmatic and what if you're a new convert and believe only one of those?
At first Pastor was like, okay, all you have to do is just believe. But then eventually he took that back because that's too generic and even of the world believes a historical version. Okay, you have to believe that he is savior he said. What does it mean to believe in a savior I asked? What if you believe that Jesus saved you with his love message? With his hope for a new afterlife? Does it have to be that he died in atonement for your sins? What about all those new converts that might just have one of those notions? Then Pastor said you have to believe that Jesus died in atonement for your sins. He never really said what happens to those new converts who might believe he's savior, but not quite right, that he's Lord in a generic or even misguided sense and rose from the dead, but not the atonement sensese, at least yet etc. One lady, a prohpet actually, said you have to just believe He is savoir, in whatever sense it is you have. (plus that you are a sinner) She didn't say what happens to new converts who convert but don't believe in a savior sense yet. I'm not sure which person is technically right.

So if you could respond to the general line of thinking above about what exactly you have to believe, that would be appreciated.[/quote]

Edited August 9, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

I would say faith must be active as Romans 1:5 and James 2:24 states, but we cannot obligate God to give us salvation for any good works we may do. Rather, saving faith would be the total surrender of ones life to the master and Savior, Jesus Christ. Saving faith would bring one into the New Covenant of whom there is only one mediator.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Interesting. So you would say that the faith is such that results in handing over one's life to Jesus. If one doesn't have that sort of faith, no matter what lip service or theologies they believe, it doesn't cut it. I would assume also that your definitions of "savior" etc would not matter as long as they hand themselves over to Jesus, and if they are truly handed over, they will eventually know the details. If they don't know them yet, it's not a big deal if they handed over.

You aren't so express about "relying on Jesus" as savior. Of course it's implied, as anything is implied with anything said, but since you dind't say it, your response is distinct from some other protestants.

Edited August 9, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

The phrase "rely on Jesus" can mean too many things and is the battle cry of nominal "Christians". Western Protestant Christianity has turned the Christian faith into more of a sub-culture within the US than the carrying on of a covenant promise. To miss the concept of covenant in the scriptures can be fatal (in my opinion of course). The covenants of the Israelites continually failed until God came, incarnated and instead of establishing a covenant between Himself and a group of people:

God || Covenant || People <-- bound to fail because people cannot keep the covenant

God made a covenant through His Son

God || Covenant || God incarnate <-> People join this final covenant through faith in Jesus.

The new covenant promise is not kept through ritual sacrifice of other men or animals, but through the one sacrifice of Jesus. This is what is efficacious for salvation. This Christian faith then, it seems, and our eternal salvation, depends on our adherence to the covenant that God made with man to deal with the sin problem. Since sacrifice is out of the question as a measure of whether or not we have adhered to the covenant, since the sacrifice is Christ's, the Gospel writers offer faith in the One, or faith in the sacrifice of the One, since it is this sacrifice that has the power to get us to heaven. This faith and trust must be genuine, and it seems that a genuine faith involves more than, as you put it, lip service to God. The Bible warns against those who give lip service and do not truly serve God, that their faith is not active. Paul warns of it, Christ warns of it (the Sheep and the Goats), James warns of it in His epistle, as does John in the Apocalypse. If faith cannot mean simply lip service, and yet faith cannot be attached to sacrifice (for that is Christ's), then the measure of our faith would be in the way in which we live our lives. Have we thus truly surrendered to Christ, have we "had faith in Him" or do we now still have faith in Him? This will go on to get even more complicated because the question then, is where is the line truly drawn between genuine faith and faith that does not save because it is truly not faith (perhaps simply the same belief as the demons as scripture references to). Catholicism has doctrines in which we are saved if we do not sin mortally (which is the rejection of God's grace through serious, conscience sin). Some Protestants believe something close to this, while others believe it is impossible for believers to sin against God in such a way that we could ever lose the inheritance of eternal life. The story of the Prodigal Son though is enough proof against this.