Ezekial 42 and so on

[stbernardLT]

I would like everyone, including our two protestant brothers (since they mentioned in another thread that we avoid Ezekiel)to read Ezekiel 40 till the end of the book. After this passage is read thoroughly I would like to hear how this vision of worship translates into protestant churches, if they evn do at all. I know it doesn't take much to see how it translates in Catholic worship, but insite from everyone would be cool. This could be like a big Bible Study/Logical Debate thing.

I know the topic says 42 but I meant 40.

Pay attention to the carvings of cherubs, the altar, sanctuary, the vestments, the PRIEST, laws and statutes, offerings, gates, etc.

Edited August 18, 2006 by stbernardLT

[Guest JeffCR07]

most protestants will argue that either 1.) Christ fulfills this role as the Heavenly Priest like in the letter to the Hebrews (which then begs the question why their liturgy doesn't reflect this heavenly worship) or, more probably, they will argue that 2.) the Levitical priesthood was abolished with Christ, and now there is a common priesthood of all believers, rendering Ezekial's vision to be of the perfection of the Levitical priesthood, but not of the ultimate goal, which is achieved in the universalization of the priesthood through Christ.

[Eutychus]

[quote]most protestants will argue that either 1.) Christ fulfills this role as the Heavenly Priest like in the letter to the Hebrews [b](which then begs the question why their liturgy doesn't reflect this heavenly worship)[/b] [/quote]

I believe you answered your own question here.

WHERE is that worship carried out?

Earth?

Heaven?

IF it was intended for earth, the book of Acts would have recorded that.

HERE IS HERE, THERE IS THERE. NOW IS NOW, and THEN IS THEN.

Didn't take all that much scholarship to ferret out this one guys.

Now if anyone gets HERE confused with HEAVEN, then adopt me, I want to live in YOUR HOUSE!!!



By the way, there is a REAL little "gem" tucked away in Ezekiel 40 since you are never trained in proper biblical exegesis....let me give you a clue.

Print out two pages, one Ezekiel 40 the other Exodus 26 & 27

Then try and so a "parallelism study" where the elements of the Tabernacle { each of which told of the coming of Jesus } to the Vison Temple of Ezekiel. See how many elements you can connect.

It really is worthwhile endeavor.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Eutychus

[Aloysius]

If God is worshipped this way in heaven, why should we worship Him any differently on earth? I don't understand.

One of the biggest points of Christ's coming was to announce the coming of the Kingdom of God to earth. Let God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Let God be worshiped on earth as He is in heaven. We are approaching the days of a new heaven and a new earth where this will be perfectly carried out. We are always called to begin to make that be carried out: to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to Earth.

[Eutychus]

[quote]One of the biggest points of Christ's coming was to announce the coming of the Kingdom of God to earth. [/quote]

"Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..." { Lords Prayer }

Unfortunately confused theologians have the ages confused.

We are NOT in the "Kingdom Age" now, that comes when Jesus returns to rule and reign { literally } for a millenium. At that time satan is bound { temporarily } and Jesus Himself will run the planet.

As of NOW, this is satans planet, and his dark forces.

Jesus Himself told Pilate at His trail..."My Kingdom is NOT of the earth..." eventually it will be, but until then the prince of the air and ruler of this planet is, unfortunately, satan.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1046495' date='Aug 19 2006, 03:16 AM']
"Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..." { Lords Prayer }

Unfortunately confused theologians have the ages confused.

We are NOT in the "Kingdom Age" now, that comes when Jesus returns to rule and reign { literally } for a millenium. At that time satan is bound { temporarily } and Jesus Himself will run the planet.

As of NOW, this is satans planet, and his dark forces.

Jesus Himself told Pilate at His trail..."My Kingdom is NOT of the earth..." eventually it will be, but until then the prince of the air and ruler of this planet is, unfortunately, satan.
[/quote]


Wrongo. We are in the 'Kingdom Age'. Christ himself uttered the words to usher in this period ofhistory when he died on the cross "it is finished". He did not mean solely his earthly life...obviously...since he was to return for a time 3 days later. Neither did he mean the action of salvation, since he had to not only die, but resurrect to accomplish this. Once again - 3 days hence. "It is finished" refers to the end of the rule of Satan over the Earth - his power had been broken and God's Kingdom on Earth was beginning. We are still in the process of building said kingdom, BTW.

Reign for a millenium.....all the symbolism and numerology in the Bible and yet you insist on selectively taking that one number literally. Wake up and study harder. 1000 means an immense time, not 1000 literal years. if you insist on 1000 literal years, you must also use the same faulty personal interpretation to believe the creation was literally 6 twenty-four hour days.

You really need to pay attention to what the Bible teaches about your personal interpretations and leave it to the Church as the Bible directs you:

2 Peter 1: 20,21 - Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

'Course you prolly conveniently ignore this part of the Bible since it doesn't fit your cafeteria Christianity. Or mebbe you toss out the whole book since it was written by the first pope....

I shall pray for you to find Truth so that it may set you free of your hatred and anger and allow you to find your way to love.

[stbernardLT]

Jesus is present on Earth reigning through His Body, the Church. He is also presently reigning in our life if we give Him the chance through the Eucharist. The Holy Spirit is with us, through Baptism. And the Father has always been here through His creations, his image is found in every person, and his hand in every creation. The trinity is here "old faithful biblical scholar" and where a perfect God so must be His perfect reign. How can God possibly be somewhere and not be incontrol. That would go against his nature of either allowing or willing things. Ezekial will not mean anything to you until you and the rest of protestants realize that God is present in every form here on Earth. That is why the mass is referred to as Heaven on Earth. That is why we worship like Ezekial prescribes, because we believe exactly what you said he is referring to "Kingdom Age". The difference is we know that the time to worship him in truth and presence is here and now, and it has been that way for 2000 years ever since the Crucifixion. Eutychus I hope you find your way to heaven, but I can tell you, that you will be learning from the Catholics when you get there, because we already know how to worship a living , present, intimate God. Not just the Holy Spirit, but the creator (who created the land, the people, and CULTURE), and Jesus Christ who isn't someone we just talk about, but someone who we become one with through communion.

I think that is why the protestants, like prophecy so much, because it gives them an excuse to keep pushing tough scriptures back , saying it isn't that time yet. If you truly believe in the timelessness of the bible you would know that every single part of the Word has relevance for today and can be put to use. No matter if it is laws, lessons, or even worship techniques. If your so much into the bible I suggest you make it your priority to live it out (all of it).

God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. In heaven and on Earth. Why should He be worshipped any differently. The hebrews knew how, the Catholic Church knows how, and when we get to heaven we will definitely know how.

[Eutychus]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1046498' date='Aug 19 2006, 02:30 AM']
Wrongo. We are in the 'Kingdom Age'. Christ himself uttered the words to usher in this period ofhistory when he died on the cross "it is finished". He did not mean solely his earthly life...obviously...since he was to return for a time 3 days later. Neither did he mean the action of salvation, since he had to not only die, but resurrect to accomplish this. Once again - 3 days hence. "It is finished" refers to the end of
[/quote]

Well I have to give you some credit....you did try....more than others seem to do.

"It is FINISHED" is basic bible 101. "There is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood { Hebrews }" so, when Jesus died, after having paid the price for OUR SINS, he uttered "...it is finished..." and died. At that point the WORD of redemption was completed. The resurrection had nothing to do with salvation itself, but of the REWARDS phase, He was a "first fruits" example to all of us, of the glorious reward that awaits those that get to heaven.

[quote] the rule of Satan over the Earth - his power had been broken and God's Kingdom on Earth was beginning. We are still in the process of building said kingdom, BTW.[/quote]

Yeah, just allegorize reality into spiritual blather....that is what happens when you fail to LITERALLY take LITERAL PROPHECY and LITERALLY change it into nothingness.

Satan is NOT bound, of course, that happens in Revelation, when he is BOUND with a chain, and put into abyss/holding tank, for a thousand years. If Satan is bound NOW, his chain is too long.....heheheheh.

{ Satan bound? Have you read the history books of the past 2000 years? If that is satan bound, I shudder to think of what things would be like without that...}


[quote]

Reign for a millenium.....all the symbolism and numerology in the Bible and yet you insist on selectively taking that one number literally. Wake up and study harder. 1000 means an immense time, not 1000 literal years. if you insist on 1000 literal years, you must also use the same faulty personal interpretation to believe the creation was literally 6 twenty-four hour days.[/quote]

Oh, so 1,000 doesn't mean 1,000 unless some men in dresses agree? Better to take a literal interpretation of Revelation 20. While the Bible does speak allegorically at times, it is pretty clear when it is doing so. If a passage can be taken literally, it should be. One thousand years is mentioned specifically in vs 1-7. Other mentions of time in Revelation are specific (ten days - Rev.2:10; forty-two months – Rev. 11:2, 13:5), or otherwise vaguely noted (a little while – Rev. 6:11; a short time – Rev. 12:12). So, you can see that within the book, there are both, EXACT numbers, and APPROXIMATE TIME periods, in both cases they can be clearly identified, and 1,000 isn't approximate, unless you don't WANT to believe that 1k =1k.



[quote]You really need to pay attention to what the Bible teaches about your personal interpretations and leave it to the Church as the Bible directs you:[/quote]

FWIW, hotshot, the Catholic Church has NEVER definitively interpreted Revelations. So, you are asking me to defer to the theolgians and magicsteeringthem when they themselves cannot agree for more than 20 years at a time what the CURRENT spin is on Revelations?


[quote]2 Peter 1: 20,21 - Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.[/quote]

Neat how you yanked ONE VERSE out and isolated it to "prove" that the Roman Catholic church and the boys in silk and lace are the only ones that can "interpret scripture". Of course, the ENTIRE bible {30% of which contains prophecy, some fulfilled, some not } belief that myopic and misinterpreted phrase. What Peter is saying is...if the bible SAYS a 1000 years, it MEANS a thousand years { or very close to that } when PRIVATE persons decide to "interpret things" { Aquinas, Origen, Clarabelle } that CHANGE the clear meaning to a NEW meaning, they should be ignored.


[quote]'Course you prolly conveniently ignore this part of the Bible since it doesn't fit your cafeteria Christianity. Or mebbe you toss out the whole book since it was written by the first pope....[/quote]

Of course, the earliest lists compiled on your so called apostolic succession list, don't even have Peter on the list, but start off with Linus. The bible doesn't suppor that concept, and NO mention whatsoever of Peter's role as head of the church is contained within the bible { only by "private interpretation" and lots of FORGED DOCUMENTS did the Catholic Church create that little myth out of whole cloth. }

[quote]I shall pray for you to find Truth so that it may s[u]et you free of your hatred and anger and allow you to find your way to love.[/u] [/quote]

I have one question. Is this REQUIRED whenever you interact with Catholics? Anyone that disagrees with you is IMMEDIATELY accused of HATRED AND ANGER? It must be, since this is #3 on the STANDARD TECHIQUES OF THE ONLINE CATHOLIC APOLOGIST....sigh.

[quote] * 3:- Accusation of hate Technique

Always Insist that your opponent is full of hate.
It is always advisable to paint your opponent as hateful.
This technique should always contain a reference,
to your extreme caringness and the limitless bounds of your great humility.[/quote]

{ the list is on Dave Armstrongs blog, in case you don't know of him, he is a convert to the Catholic Church and a well known Catholic apologist.}

NOTICE -> you didn that one perfectly, tagged your opponent as a "hater" and showd your "limitless love and care"

I give your efforts a PERFECT TEN on the TECHNIQUES chart!