Karl Rahner's influence

[morostheos]

I don't see anything here

I was really interested in what you had to say about good ol' Karl Rahner too...

[Fides_et_Ratio]

so weird.. something goofy is going on with the forums..

I was asking if anyone knew some good sources about Karl Rahner's influence at Vatican II... one of my theology profs this semester is madly in love with Rahner's theology and we're going to reading a lot of him-- and part of the last third of the semester is devoted to his "strong influence at the Second Vatican Counsel" and considering some of Rahner's "problems" (i.e., with obedience, the papacy, etc.) this concerns me and I was hoping to do some of my own background reading outside of class if anyone had any good info.

[shortnun]

You know, I'm sure I've got something on my shelves, but I'll have to do a bit of investigating. I guess the summer has muddied my brain a bit. I'm not back in a theological mindset quite yet.

We need Laudate_Dominum to read this thread. He'd have suggestions......


*goes off to flip through books*

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1048365' date='Aug 22 2006, 08:09 PM']
so weird.. something goofy is going on with the forums..

I was asking if anyone knew some good sources about Karl Rahner's influence at Vatican II... one of my theology profs this semester is madly in love with Rahner's theology and we're going to reading a lot of him-- and part of the last third of the semester is devoted to his "strong influence at the Second Vatican Counsel" and considering some of Rahner's "problems" (i.e., with obedience, the papacy, etc.) this concerns me and I was hoping to do some of my own background reading outside of class if anyone had any good info.
[/quote]
Fides_et_ratio.... I don't recall where you go to college (which is really irrelevant). Do you have access to a theological database through your library? Like ATLA or CPLI? I found an article from Theological Studies that might be helpful for you.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I can access our database through the University library... do you know the title of the article?

[Laudate_Dominum]

I posted earlier but phatmass messed up and my post isn't here. I'll make this one short:

"The Rhine Flows into the Tiber" by Ralph Wiltgen. It has some pertinent stuff and it's just a fun book.

If you want volumes of essays on the happenings of Vatican II from a variety of scholars I'd recommend searching your library for books associated with Giuseppe Alberigo.

George Weigel wrote a review of the Alberigo volumes a while back, here it is:
[url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0106/reviews/weigel.html"]http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0106...ews/weigel.html[/url]

Peace.

[Noel's angel]

awww, I love 'The Rhine Flows Into The Tiber'. 'Twas a nice wee book.

Edited August 23, 2006 by Noel's angel

[thessalonian]

I believe some of Rahner's books have been banned. Not sure which ones. I know his theology is off base in a number of areas. Proceed with caution.

[Pennypacker11]

While caution is warranted with Rahner's theology (actually, for many things like his transcendental Christology, it is the [i]tradjectory[/i] of it rather than he well-nuanced conclusions which are [i]most[/i] problematic), he is someone that [b]must[/b] be studied if one wants to understand 20th century Catholic theology. He and Hans Urs von Balthasar are probably the two most influential (a good critique of parts of Rahner's theology is in Balthasar's [i]Moment of Christian Witness[/i], especially in the epilogue where Balthasar responds to critiques of his critique).

I don't know any good sources for his influence at the council (I'm sure you can find one through ATLA), but a good source for showing his influence in interpreting the council is in the Vorgrimler commentaries in which he wrote a number of the entries (Ratzinger was one of the other main contributers to these volumes) and the early volumes of [i]Concilium[/i].

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Oh, I know Karl Rahner ought to be studied because he's had such an influence. But I object to his being the representative of Catholic authority in a theology class. And I'm uncomfortable with the claim that he had an overwhelming and extensive influence at Vatican II-- if that be true, he must've been greatly glossed over when the documents were actually put in writing because the documents are much clearer and far less ambiguous than much of Karl Rahner's theology.

[thessalonian]

I think that people who say that are trads who don't understand certain aspects of Catholic theology and so blame what they consider to be liberalism to Rahner.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

People who say what? That Rahner had an influence at the Counsel? This is being put forth by a rather liberal theology professor who's devoting almost the last third of the semester to Karl Rahner.

I know Rahner was at VII, but if I can, I'd like to know more specifics about his influence.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Initially Vatican II was tending to be more or less continuous with the teachings of Pope Pius XII. What ended up being produced was quite different from what was originally envisioned.
To make a long story short, there was an overbearing progressive agenda that manipulated the outcome of the council and Karl Rahner was one of the big guns of this agenda (arguably the big gun).
He was an extremely outspoken and vehement activist at the council and lobbied quite hard outside of the council sessions to manipulate things

That's kind of it in a nutshell.

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1048897' date='Aug 23 2006, 11:03 AM']
People who say what? That Rahner had an influence at the Counsel? This is being put forth by a rather liberal theology professor who's devoting almost the last third of the semester to Karl Rahner.

I know Rahner was at VII, but if I can, I'd like to know more specifics about his influence.
[/quote]
For the liberal Rahner is a hero who freed the council from the shackles of the middle ages. For the radtrad he is perhaps an instrument of the devil who tried to destroy the Church. In my opinion I would have preferred the council as it was originally intended to be, but I don't presume that things went entirely against God's will. Many of the councils involved a very profound human dimension including political agendas and competing egos, but God still brings good out of it. And besides, it's not like Rahner really got his way at the council, in many ways that agenda was compromised.

[shortnun]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1048869' date='Aug 23 2006, 11:22 AM']
Oh, I know Karl Rahner ought to be studied because he's had such an influence. But I object to his being the representative of Catholic authority in a theology class. And I'm uncomfortable with the claim that he had an overwhelming and extensive influence at Vatican II-- if that be true, he must've been greatly glossed over when the documents were actually put in writing because the documents are much clearer and far less ambiguous than much of Karl Rahner's theology.
[/quote]
Is the class on Vat II? If so, then perhaps by studying the context from which it arose, and means by which it occurred that you'll see more rationale behind your professor devoting 1/3 of the semester to Rahner. And while Rahner's influence on the Council is the topic here, it is indisputable that many, many individuals wrote the documents of Vat II (hence why there are parts which are more clear/ambigious than others) thus resulting in a blend of writing styles and theological opinion.

Oh, and I left the copy of the article at home, but I'll look it up and post the reference for you to search in ATLA.

[thessalonian]

[quote]it's not like Rahner really got his way at the council, in many ways that agenda was compromised.[/quote]

That's what I mean. I won't deny Rahner had an influence. But it is less than the trads attribute to him.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

It's a class on grace and freedom, humanity and the divine, etc. I'm not really sure what it's point or agenda is, but it's a requirement.

I'm just looking for sources on Karl Rahner's influence at the Council, firstly for my own edification, but also because I'd like to be able to respond more to her when the time comes (today we discussed how "experience" is looked to before looking to doctrine/dogmas after VII and that VII "freed" Catholics to have an "experience" of theology/the Transcendant (i.e., God))