Religious Leaders' Statement on Christian Zionism

[ruso]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1055469' date='Sep 2 2006, 05:20 AM']
It does mention the United States by name.
They blame the US, and Israel, for the leading, thus causing the violence not the Isamo Terrorist.

Under the same circumstances the "Creation" of Israel would be a non-issue had the state been a Muslim State and not a Jewish one. The foundation of the conflict in Palestine and the nations the surround Israel is hate of the Jew. It all comes down to that.

The letter sounds very liberal to me, I have heard many libs say the very same things. It makes acusations of "empire building", wheres the empire? It makes acusations of "colonialism", wheres the colonies?

Who are the Christian Zionist? Name them. They claim to be equal, but there is no comendnation of Terrorist, so what if the topic is just "Christian Zionism", Terrorist are a BIG BIG part of the violence, the topic is no excuse to leave out a big part of the problem.
[/quote]
You do not want to inform?, truth.
Our enemies are the radical Muslims and Jews of Israel.

[KnightofChrist]

I want to know the answers to my questions. I want to know truth.

If radical Jews what to Kill americans, then yes of course they are our enemies. But where are the radical jews cutting off the heads of americans? Where are the radical jews flying planes into WTC's, and blowing themselves up everyday on bus filled with women and children?

[Era Might]

The concern of the Patriarch is not with the United States of America, but with the Palestinians. Zionism, especially in its extreme forms common in American Protestant circles, is an unjust threat to the Palestinian people and to the whole world. It's not about an Islamic threat to the United States, it's about a Christian (and largely American) threat to the Palestinian people. Israel is one state among many, and it's not an international crown jewel that needs to be protected at all costs with military force, particularly in the name of religion. The only legitimate solution in the Middle East is the recognition that Israelis and Palestinians both have to live together.

The problem with Zionism is the same as the problem with the old American dream of "manifest destiny". God is not a real estate agent. Nobody has a divine mission to go live here and there. Nobody was around to speak for the American Indians when they were being railroaded in the 18th and 19th centuries, and we can't allow the same thing to happen to the Palestinians.

But, like I said before, this needs to be kept in its proper context, so that we don't fall towards the opposite extreme and protect the Palestinians to the extent where we turn Israel into an enemy. Israel is not the enemy. Zionism is the enemy, or more specifically, Christian Zionism, both because of its faulty theology and because of its sordid expectation of war and messianic drama.

Peace, dialogue, diplomacy, and objectivity are the necessary roads to a solution in the Middle East, not a Zionism which abandons any pretense of objectivity and threatens the peace because many who profess it are ready to kill to get the Jews to Zion, and set the Parousia in motion.

Rabbi Haim Beliak from "Jews On First" had a good explanation of the problem with Christian Zionism recently:

[quote]"Christian Zionism" entirely ignores Jewish/Zionist aspirations for 'normalcy.' Zionism was to be a new start for Judaism and the Jewish people living enlightened lives in peace. Instead, Christian Zionism encourages the Israeli government and the so-called American Jewish leadership on a path toward enmity with the Palestinians and disrespect for Islam.[/quote]

[Era Might]

By the way, I reject the opposite side of the coin that Jews aren't allowed back into Israel until the "Messiah" comes or whatever. A zionism which is more about Jewish people going back to the land of their fathers, and NOT about a divine mission, is fine with me, although the rights of Palestinians to exist has to be protected at the same time.

[ruso]

Perhas is later, the new order Catholics in holy land they arrived late.
In spanish, [url="http://www.ivemo.org/"]http://www.ivemo.org/[/url]

[kdewolf2]

I applaud the statement on Christian Zionism.

Christian Zionism is a real problem here in the United States, and I wish we could hear more from our religious leaders on the topic.

Some of the responses here prove the point, especially Knight of Christ, who seems to think WE are right, and THEY are wrong, and that settles it.

Of course, terrorism is wrong and I have no doubt that God will judge anybody who takes part in terrorist actions harshly.

However, the United States and Israel have committed numerous crimes and atrocities throughout their history which make an isolated terrorist attack, like 9/11, pale in comparison.

And, it's not like terrorists kill people just because they feel like killing people. They do have their grievances, and it's certainly not the best way to redress those grievances, but desperate men do desperate things, especially when nobody is listening.

Christian Zionism is a problem because the whole ideology of the "chosen people" and the "promised land" blinds Christians to palpable injustice and prevents them from becoming real peacemakers, instead of narrow-minded, jingoistic, Islam-bashing, war-loving cretins.

BTW, a condemnation of Zionism does not amount to anti-Semitism. There have been plenty of Jews who have taken a stand for peace and condemned Zionism.

[Aloysius]

I do not so much hold religiously that the jews are not allowed into the holy land until the coming of the Messiah (though the Talmud holds that and if I were a Jew I would probably believe that). As far as I see it the whole world basically condemned colonialism and fought revolutions everywhere to get rid of it... but of course the British colony in Palestine could be colonized by a dispersed group from Europe and everybody's fine with it because they have a biblical name

the Jews never should have created a state there, and [b]there will be no peace as long as the state of israel is[/b] (at the very least as big as it is now) [b] in Palistine[/b]

They had no right to form the state of israel because after two millenia they no longer have any right to that land.

The Palestinians have a just greviance with a foreign entity taking control of their homeland and making them into second class citizens.

the most pro-semte thing to do would be to give the [i]semitic[/i] arabs sovereignty over their own land.

btw, sorry I didn't see the mention of the united states in the artical. i re-read it even did a search through my web browser before I posted that; must've missed it and hit two keys at once or something and made a typo

the existence of Israel is in itself something bad and evil. I also condemn the targeting of civilians on both sides and the cowardice of those who hide and launch attacks from civilian areas.

Israel is a state full of semitic europeans (two millenia living there makes them europeans in my book) controling a colony in the land of Palestine usurping the right to self-determination and self-sovereignty by the people there. Anyone else we would condemn for creating such a situation.

You can destroy Hezbollah and the PLO and Hamas, in a few decades there will be new groups. There are only two options: the genocide of the Palestinians (which would invite a more widespread and popular jihad from the rest of the muslim world so, a genocide of all arabs would be inevitably necessary) or the dissassembling of the state of Israel.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1056765' date='Sep 4 2006, 07:09 PM']the Jews never should have created a state there, and [b]there will be no peace as long as the state of israel is[/b] (at the very least as big as it is now) [b] in Palistine[/b]

...

The Palestinians have a just greviance with a foreign entity taking control of their homeland and making them into second class citizens.

...

the existence of Israel is in itself something bad and evil. I also condemn the targeting of civilians on both sides and the cowardice of those who hide and launch attacks from civilian areas.[/quote]
Sounds a lot like the creation of the "United States of America". We took all this land from the Indians, and used violence to obtain it. No, that should never have taken place, and no, the "United States of America" should have never come to be, but they did, just as the state of Israel came to be, and that has to be accepted. Palestinians and Israelis CAN live in peace, just as Americans and American Indians can live in peace today. Israel is no more "evil" than the United States of America. If we are afforded to right to Patriotism in our nation, which was stolen and built off the back of institutional slavery, then Israelis have a right to Patriotism for their nation. They don't have to apologize for existing anymore than we do, even though, if we could do it over again, we would choose not to exist, at least not at the expense of others.

To say that Israel has to be disassembled is as ludicrous as saying the United States of America should disband the union and return authority to local Indian tribes. And there are people out there who would advocate that, but it's unacceptable. We have to live together, and let the past rest in the past.