This doesnt even LOOK real

[Budge]

[quote] Pope makes pilgrimage to sanctuary in central Italy
The Associated Press

Published: September 1, 2006
MANOPPELLO, Italy Pope Benedict XVI on Friday visited and prayed at a sanctuary[size=5] in this tiny village in central Italy that holds a shroud some believe was used to wipe the blood and sweat off Jesus Christ's face during the final hours before his crucifixion.
[/size]
It was the first time that a pontiff has made a pilgrimage to the little-known, 17th-century sanctuary of Manoppello. Benedict arrived by helicopter and was greeted by a few thousand pilgrims waving flags with the Vatican's white and yellow colors, and carrying banners that read, "Hurrah for the pope," and "Benedict, Benedict."

Those welcoming the pontiff included Bishop Bruno Forte, a theologian and longtime friend of the pope. Forte serves as bishop in the nearby town of Chieti.

The pontiff entered the sanctuary and prayed before the altar for about five minutes, then went behind it and prayed before the shroud for a few more minutes.
[u]
The "Holy Face" is not as famous as the Holy Shroud of Turin, held to be Christ's burial cloth, but some experts say the effigies on the two cloths can be perfectly superimposed and that the two images were formed at the same time. Skeptics say it appears to have been painted.

Benedict did not address the effigy's origins, as is usual with the Vatican, which is generally very cautious. But his visit has drawn interest to the image some believe to show the real face of Christ.

"This is the meaning of my visit. So that together we can try to better know the face of our Lord, so that from it we can find strength in love and peace that can show us the path," Benedict said.[/u]

The Holy Face, measuring 17 x 24 centimeters (6.7 x 9.4 inches), is the effigy of a man with long hair, a sparse beard and a half-open mouth. The face is oval and asymmetric, the color is a light brown. The white of the eyes can be see under the iris.

The veil is kept under glass. It is so thin that it can be seen from both sides.

The cloth is believed to have been in Manoppello since 1506, and the pope's visit was the highlight of year-long celebrations marking the 500th anniversary of the veil's arrival in this mountainous town about 200 kilometers (125 miles) east of Rome.

The veil was donated to the sanctuary in 1638, said the rector of the sanctuary, the Rev. Carmine Cucinelli. The sanctuary is visited every year by some 250,000 pilgrims, he said. But officials hope that the pope's visit will increase that number.

[size=5]In many residents of Manoppello, the visit by Benedict reinforced the belief the shroud is authentic.

"We've been worshipping the Holy Face for five centuries," said Manoppello resident Gina Virgilio, a retiree. "The pope's visit has confirmed the veil is authentic."[/size]

"This has been a special day. It's been a wonderful, touching, emotional encounter," said the woman.

The pope has been spending time at his summer retreat in Castel Gandolfo, a hill town south of Rome. Later Friday he starts a two-day meeting with his former students on the issue of creationism and evolution.

Later this month, he is to travel to his native Germany.[/quote]

This is the actual "veil"

1. It doesnt even look real.

2. It is badly rendered even for a medieval artist/face is asymmetrical, eyes are badly painted.

[img]http://www.alleanzacattolica.org/immagini/voltosanto_manoppello.jpg[/img]

Why does the Vatican allow its people to believe legends and myths instead of TRUTH?

[OLAM Dad]

Welcome back, Budge.

As a professional anti-Catholic, you really shouldn't be working on the sabbath.

[Budge]

So Olam what do you think of that phony picture, that all tbose poor people think is really the face of Jesus Christ?

[zunshynn]

How do you know it's not the face of Jesus Christ Budge? "It doesn't look real" isn't good enough. WHY doesn't it look real?

And as for your second point-- that has nothing to do with it being real or not. If it is real it wasn't painted, so it being a bad medieval painting doesn't mean anything because it's not a medieval painting, bad or otherwise.

[OLAM Dad]

I agree with you, Budge. It looks fake to me too. Could it be real? Sure, I believe in miracles. Do I think that it is? Based purely on the picture you've posted, no, I don't think it looks real. We've had a lot of scam artists as well as a lot of saints in the Church, sometimes it's hard to know the difference. It has always been that way. Take Judas as an example, he had a lot of people fooled.

The great thing about the Church is that I don't have to believe one way or the other, I'm free to choose.

[Budge]

[quote]How do you know it's not the face of Jesus Christ Budge? "It doesn't look real" isn't good enough. WHY doesn't it look real?
[/quote]

It is obvious it is not real even knowing the basics of human physiology and more. It looks like a medieval cartoon. It fits the stylizations of that time.
[img]

And as for your second point-- that has nothing to do with it being real or not. If it is real it wasn't painted, so it being a bad medieval painting doesn't mean anything because it's not a medieval painting, bad or otherwise.
[/img]

Reword that in English plase...

It was painted. Dont fool yourself...painted or someother type of artistic method was used.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' post='1056029' date='Sep 3 2006, 12:30 PM']
I agree with you, Budge. It looks fake to me too. Could it be real? Sure, I believe in miracles. Do I think that it is? Based purely on the picture you've posted, no, I don't think it looks real. We've had a lot of scam artists as well as a lot of saints in the Church, sometimes it's hard to know the difference. It has always been that way. Take Judas as an example, he had a lot of people fooled.

The great thing about the Church is that I don't have to believe one way or the other, I'm free to choose.
[/quote]

[Budge]

[quote]The great thing about the Church is that I don't have to believe one way or the other, I'm free to choose.[/quote]

The church of OPTIONAL beliefs, where TRUTH doesnt matter.

So if some scam artists [in this case Thomas of the Grainery in 1200 or whatever his name was] wants to pull off some religious con job, it doesnt matter if some poor peasants are fooled.

Catholic Church: the religion based on LEGENDS and myths.

{some of you too afraid to admit you think its a put-upon too?} "Im not required to believe it" seems to me to be a cop-out for admitting you dont believe it either." Youre just too afraid your fellow Catholics will freak out.

It seems if some of your fellow Catholics were being CONNED [like they are at Mejugorje and a hundred other places like the lady who saw Mary in a tree in NJ] youd want something done about it.

Edited September 3, 2006 by Budge

[zunshynn]

Budge,

Whether or not this cloth is really the face of Jesus is not a matter of faith or morals that God has publicly revealed to the Apostles and their successors. As such, this is optional. Our faith doesn't hinge upon it, like beliefs in the Eucharist, in the communion of saints, Tradition, do.

[rkwright]

Budge you have started many threads on the looks and feel about the Catholic Church. Complaining that the viel isn't real, that the Mass doesn't look like the Mass in Acts, Ritualism leads some away from God, ect ect...

But you have yet to tackle one point of solid theology, yet to point out one single thing that honestly actually matters. You are attacking tradition but not Tradition. Even if the viel turns out to be a fake, if our Mass today looks and feels differently than in Acts, or if any of your other threads are actually true it wouldn't matter; our Church is the One Church founded by Christ Himself who gave the keys to Peter promising the Gates of Hell would not prevail. The actions of one or two members of the Church over the course of 2000 years does not change that.

[Winchester]

Catholic Church

So you support the Ukrainian Catholic Church and all the other Rites of the Catholic Church?

Good to know.

[Resurrexi]

lol Winchester!

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056016' date='Sep 3 2006, 11:09 AM']
This is the actual "veil"
2. It is badly rendered even for a medieval artist/face is asymmetrical, eyes are badly painted.
[/quote]

It is not a painting. In 1999, a team of scientists from the University of Bari in southern Italy concluded that the image had not been painted or impressed on the fabric in any way that could be explained.

Also it is not the offical veil, so the vatican is not saying it is real, Budgey.

[Budge]

[quote]
So you support the Ukrainian Catholic Church and all the other Rites of the Catholic Church?[/quote]

NO.

[quote]
It is not a painting. In 1999, a team of scientists from the University of Bari in southern Italy concluded that the image had not been painted or impressed on the fabric in any way that could be explained.

Also it is not the offical veil, so the vatican is not saying it is real, Budgey.[/quote]

Oh do they have another veil or two? [wouldnt doubt it]

Theres two houses of Mary, and Theres two arms of this saint, and two heads for this other...

[Eutychus]

[quote]It is not a painting. In 1999, a team of scientists from the University of Bari in southern Italy concluded that the image had not been painted or impressed on the fabric in any way that could be explained. [/quote]

Suuuuuuureeeeee......

I have a grilled coagulated milk virgin mary, that MY TEAM swears is not explainable by griddle marks too....

Want it?

EBAY awaits!

[CatholicCid]

I'm confused as to what the debate is O_o? Any help please?

[journeyman]

Budge thinks the veil is a fake, so the Church, by allowing it, is also a fake.

(Budge, have I summarized your point accurately?)

[batteddy]

Yeah...I don't think this is the real one. I think this is at best a copy, and the real one is at St. Peter's in Rome.

But does it really matter if it is real, Budge?

You seem to not grasp what we mean when we say "Truth".

Truth, in our religious sense, is anything we can believe with the "certainty of faith". Only Dogmas.

Anything else...may or may not be true. Memories can fool people, events in history can be misrecorded, our senses can fool us. We can only say with absolute certainty that God will not fool us. Anything else might: reason, senses, history, other people, demons.

The authenticity of this holy face image is not a dogma, nor can it be the subject of dogma. But if it doesn't contradict any dogmas...who really cares? Anything that doesn't contradict dogma COULD be true. And if it could be true, and leads people closer to God...well, who really cares if it is historical as long as it could be? No matter how stretched that possibility is, something may be believed as long as it doesn't contradict our doctrine.

It may be [i]foolish[/i] or [i]naive[/i] to believe in something in the face of overwhelming evidence, but it's still possible as long as it doesn't contradict faith.

The Church really doesn't make declarations on Scientific, Historical, or even Mathematical "facts". To the Church, the only Truth that she feels is absolutely certain, the only one she feels a need to enforce, is the Truth of Faith. All other historical, scientific, and personal facts...people are free to believe whatever they want, because it's all possible (as long as it doesnt contradict doctrine) though surely some possibilities are more likely than others.

So...I should not say I "don't believe" that this is the real one. I should say that I find it it "unlikely".

But the Church is not in the bussiness of stopping people from believing non-doctrinal things just because they are "[i]unlikely[/i] to be true". She is in the bussiness of stopping people from believing things that are "[u]certainly[/u] untrue"...ie, things that are heresy and contradict Dogma, the only things in which we can have the Certainty of Faith.

If you want to believe in unicorns on a flat earth revolving around the moon with a purple sky...the Church really doesn't care as long as you havent contradicted any religious truths or been dishonest in doing so. She may recommend against it (because it makes you look really foolish) but if you are convinced that it is at least possible...fine. And if it brings you closer to God, she'd even encourage it.

Edited September 4, 2006 by batteddy

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056221' date='Sep 3 2006, 07:01 PM']
NO.
Oh do they have another veil or two? [wouldnt doubt it]

Theres two houses of Mary, and Theres two arms of this saint, and two heads for this other...
[/quote]


Well either way the Church does not say one or the other is "real" or that we "must" believe it is "real."

It quite possiable that Mary did have two houses, people move, even back then.

I would hope the saint had "two arms", and two heads are better than one. But again no where does the Church, the vatican say this stuff is with out a doubt "real."

Your posts and your topics arent about truth, their to feed your hate for the Catholic Church. You do not preach the savlation of Christ. You cant agree with us on anything. Doing that would destroy your whole little world of make believe.

[Budge]

[quote]
If you want to believe in unicorns on a flat earth revolving around the moon with a purple sky...the Church really doesn't care as long as you havent contradicted any religious truths or been dishonest in doing so. [u]She may recommend against it (because it makes you look really foolish) but if you are convinced that it is at least possible...fine. And if it brings you closer to God, she'd even encourage it.[/u][/quote]

Thats a problem.

The Catholic leadership doesnt even care if its people are victims of charlatans and LIARS.

Do you realize what the Bible says about LIARS? {people who make up seeing Mary in trees or those who paint pictures they say are the face of Jesus Christ from the supposed veil at the crucifix}

Pro 17:4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; [and] a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.

I know for a fact these foolish legends lead many into unbelief and atheism. When I was young, I could see right through half of these folktales, they actually led me AWAY from God.

[quote]Budge thinks the veil is a fake, so the Church, by allowing it, is also a fake.[/quote]

Your Pope backed it up just by being there. He doesnt care if people are being fooled either.

Edited September 4, 2006 by Budge