Definitions

[Bruce S]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines these three sins against the faith in this way:

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.

"Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith;

schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him." [Code of Canon Law c.751]

***********

Just so we know what terms are officially approved.

I guess Circle and myself definately qualify as having "sinned against the faith" on INCREDULITY, and HERESY, and our respective denominations of SCHISM.

Just so we know that we are sinners, officially, that is all...

[Ellenita]

I'm sure there's something in the bible about pride being a sin.....

[Bruce S]

there are MANY "sins" too numerous to actually list. I'm guilty of many of them, too many, God grant me help.

However, these are new "sins" ones that make not believing in a certain denominations right to be THE one way, a sin. Those were uniquely created for people that dissented from the Catholic Church.

We are not merely "protestants/independent Christians" we are sinners for being so.

Just wanted to put that out there for my fellow Protestants, so they would know where they OFFICIALLY stood on these discussions.

I just wonder if they are Mortal Sins, or Venial Sins. Want to know exactly the LEVEL of sinning we are "guilty of"

FWIW.

Edited January 8, 2004 by Bruce S

[dUSt]

I just wonder if they are Mortal Sins, or Venial Sins. Want to know exactly the LEVEL of sinning we are "guilty of"

Definitely mortal.

[Bruce S]

I guess we are going to Hell then without confessing to a Priest, which I doubt that we are likely to do, nor receive "Last Rites" ....

So, damned to hell for merely not agreeing with the Catholic Church.

See.

Now we have that nailed down, and simplified.

Grin.

What IF....just what IF....you *might be* the one's in error.

Nah...

Protestanism is tolerant there, we will allow you to go to heaven, hey why not, there is plenty of Grace in the death of Jesus for all to go around...

Best.

[dUSt]

Cool. Better to be safe than sorry.

If you believe Catholics can go to heaven, why aren't you Catholic? Is it too hard? Too much of a commitment? Would you alienate yourself from family or friends? I don't get it.

[jasJis]

I guess we are going to Hell then without confessing to a Priest, which I doubt that we are likely to do, nor receive "Last Rites" ....

So, damned to hell for merely not agreeing with the Catholic Church.

See.

Now we have that nailed down, and simplified.

Grin.

What IF....just what IF....you *might be* the one's in error.

Nah...

Protestanism is tolerant there, we will allow you to go to heaven, hey why not, there is plenty of Grace in the death of Jesus for all to go around...

Best.

Bruce,

Why do you post lies? You know that YOU saying someone is damnedto hell of merely not agreeing with the Catholic Church is not true.

You and I have disussed my Sig.

You have discussed with us how the Catholic Church teaches Salvation is found by Grace and grace can exist outside what is identified by you as the Catholic Church and the Church teaches by Grace that person is still inside the Church.

The Church teaches all Christians are brothers in Christ.

The Catholic Church is tolerant of all recognize and seek Truth and will recognize it where ever it exists, and intolerant Pride in unTruth.

Edited January 8, 2004 by jasJis

[Circle_Master]

That is an interesting twist though. No one who has committed a mortal sin may enter the kingdom of heaven - except those who don't believe in mortal sins. Is that a true statement?

[dUSt]

That is an interesting twist though. No one who has committed a mortal sin may enter the kingdom of heaven - except those who don't believe in mortal sins. Is that a true statement?

Not true at all.

[Bruce S]

Calling Cardinal Neuman!

Come on, someone MUST have a pretty good link to his teachings....please.

[jasJis]

That is an interesting twist though. No one who has committed a mortal sin may enter the kingdom of heaven - except those who don't believe in mortal sins. Is that a true statement?

An astute question, Circle, and not a very bad answer. It isn't a true statement. A mortal sin is knowing something is seriously bad and doing freely it anyway.

I am preparing a response to my two questions that you referred to Romans 1 as your answer. The answer to your question here is there as well.

This is a very critical topic and good points you've made. Please be patient for my answer.

[jrndveritatis]

Woah man. Bruce what is your problem? The last several posts I've read by you are all really bitter.

Let me point out that that is not a good strategy for influencing Catholics. It is backfiring let me tell you, obviously: just look at the responses you are getting.

Yeah, to be blunt your analysis that you are guilty of heresy, schism, and incredulity is accurate. However, drawing the conclusion from that that you are going to hell requires some additional information which only you possess. If you are truly defending the truth the best you know how and trying to live virtuously, you aren't necessarily going to hell. You are going to hell if you have recognized that the Church possesses the Truth and you refuse to accept it out of stubbonness, bitterness, laziness, or fear.

Another thing, as for the claim that after Luther came freedom, I think you are forgetting some undeniable historical facts. The Reformation, through its emphasis on personal interpretation and the rejection of authority in matters of religion, led people to question the authority of faith and ultimately even the authority of reason. This caused the Englightenment and the nihilism so prevalent in post-modern society. Not to mention that the Reformation led to the religious warfare that caused the "enlightened" classes to reject religion. (Obviously, the Catholics also committed atrocities in these wars, but it cannot be denied that these wars would not have occured without the Reformation.)

[ICTHUS]

However, these are new "sins" ones that make not believing in a certain denominations right to be THE one way, a sin. Those were uniquely created for people that dissented from the Catholic Church.

Actually, they were probably created a long time ago for people like the Arians and the Monophysites, who were, by any stretch of the imagination, heretics. Remember, Bruce, the Catechism states things that are ALREADY the teaching of the Church. The Pope doesn't just make it up on the spot.

[cmotherofpirl]

I guess we are going to Hell then without confessing to a Priest, which I doubt that we are likely to do, nor receive "Last Rites" ....

So, damned to hell for merely not agreeing with the Catholic Church.

See.

Now we have that nailed down, and simplified.

Grin.

What IF....just what IF....you *might be* the one's in error.

Nah...

Protestanism is tolerant there, we will allow you to go to heaven, hey why not, there is plenty of Grace in the death of Jesus for all to go around...

Best.

I have been told all my life by my baptist relations that I am going to hell because I'm Catholic.

I didn't even have to deny anything.

[megamattman1]

If you are truly defending the truth the best you know how and trying to live virtuously, you aren't necessarily going to hell. You are going to hell if you have recognized that the Church possesses the Truth and you refuse to accept it out of stubbonness, bitterness, laziness, or fear.

Ditto that.

On a similar note, how sad is it that people who have things explained to them persist in feigned ignorance.

1 John 5:16 "If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.."

Even if you do not agree with the Church's teachings on sin, differences in sin do exist. Whether or not you choose to realize this is up to you.

[Circle_Master]

everyone here agree's there are different punishments for sin megamatt -

[CatholicAndFanatical]

I think the scripture he referenced said that there are different 'Levels' of sin. which is where we get venial and mortal sins

venial sins do not cause death

mortal sins cause death and seperate us entirely from God until we confess and repent.

so it was the levels, not punishments that were the main point.

[Circle_Master]

mortal sins cause death and seperate us entirely from God until we confess and repent.

The part in bold is not included in the verse - perhaps you have another which clarifies?

[CatholicAndFanatical]

The part in bold is not included in the verse

no need for it to be in the verse. Mortal Sin causes Death..Death of the soul, venial sin only poisons the soul..so its not Dead

If the punishment is Death, then you are broke away from God.

Just putting two and two together

CatholicAndFanatical

[CatholicAndFanatical]

That doesnt mean you are damned because you have Mortal sin on your soul. Jesus knew the difference between Venial and Mortal, He knew that we would be seperated from Him when we sin. So He gave us a way out. He gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation, so that we can be brought back in full Union with Him.