You'ze Wasn't "properly" Catechized !

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Catechesis is life-long. However, the foundations must be laid at an early age.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

[quote name='Eutychus' date='Sep 10 2006, 11:04 PM' post='1060524']
Oh fiddle faddle!

Get REAL!

Just about EVERY ex Catholic becomes a fundy, or a fundy/pentecostal. That NORMALLY involves services on Sunday of 2hrs, AFTER you go for a 1 hour "Adult Sunday School" then we do "Wednesday Nights" which is another 2 hours. And just about EVERY ONE OF US does a "Bible Study of 2 Hrs" in addition to the above.

We used to give { $300 bucks a year - national average now for the Catholic Church } sparingly to the Catholic Church, as "fudy/pentecostals" we NORMALLY give a minimum of 10% of our GROSS, not net income, PLUS special collections for missions, building, books, and it is not unusual for most of us to support a needy kid overseas at $45 a month. Add it all up, the NORMAL contribution rate for EX Catholic Church's turned "fundy/pentecostals" is about $2,500 per family, EIGHT TIMES what we gave as pew stooges in the old parish.

Now, additionally, being EX RCCers, we didn't know SQUAT about the bible, as is the norm for Catholic Church'ers so MOST of us have to invest in biblical commentaries, tapes, lessons, books, and other "get up to speed" material

[Budge]

[quote]I was just commenting on how you felt a need to break religion down into such a materialistic and worldy things... Time, effort, and money.[/quote]

He broke it down into those things to show you that the Christian life is much involved then the Catholic life.

Catholics never pass out tracts with rare exceptions, never preach the gospel and unless they are a religious or part of an organization never run ministries.

In my Catholic family, God and church were only for Sat. night, Sunday and mentioned at the occasional sit down meal. They are very nice people, but I know they find my desire to study God's Word to be unusual, spending that "many hours on religious pursuits".

When one becomes a Christian, ones entire life changes, and if one is truly dedicated to Jesus Christ, He is on your mind-every waking hour. That includes having your money, time and effort, be dedicated to him first, {good stewart and more} That includes that every time you meet someone or every friend you got, you are wondering about their relationship with Jesus Christ and desiring that they come to know Him.

While I admit there are lukewarm baptists and others at Christian churches, at the Catholic churchs Ive been in, most came in, did their 45 minutes left and God was never mentioned for the rest of the week. Even to get enough members for the womens Bible study {the only study}--which oddly they opened only to mothers at my last church--the group went ecumenical open to the mainline Christian churches in the area, and even later died out. That was in a church of a 1000 people. There were no other Bible Studies, no ministries, no dinners save a once a year picnic, and no fellowship at that church whatsoever. Even the charities were run by social workers and employees rather then volunteers and they demanded tax returns of everyone that walked through the door. I have found most Catholic congregations to be bored, and going through the motions. While every church may have a handful of volunteers to run the pancake breakfast's and put the donuts out after a monthly service, the enthusiasm in most Catholic churches is extremely lacking.

One thing I realized was different in a Christian church is that people cared about you as an individual. People in my church receive even help if they are having a hard time paying bills, or if their spouse is unemployed. This is done without embarrasment as the money is handed them. Such a thing would never happen in the Catholic church where its so big and beaurcratic its run the same as the welfare office.

I volunteered at my last Catholic church, even ran classes for the kiddies, and had a few friends there, but the church was DEAD as a whole. I remember even while I was teaching RE...{Yes shock of all shocks the soon to be apostate was teaching the little kiddies;)} telling the RE Director, these 7th graders dont even believe in God, can I deviate from the vocabulary lists and chapters about "What the Church teaches" with pro-United Nations chapter, and teach them a little Bible to help them obtain some faith? {By then I was reading the Bible even if I had not gotten to the point of leaving yet} I was told unequivocably "NO WAY! Do not dare deviate from the lesson plans!". So what does that tell you. Little Johnny and Sally are flat out atheists, agnostics, and wannabe Wiccans, and the Catholic church worries more about if they can list the 7 sacraments rather then if they even believe in God.

Reminds me of the priests and nuns when I was 12 years old telling them I was an atheist, herding me into confirmation class.

When I was UU, no Catholics [relative, friend, acquaintance, stranger] ever witnessed to me with one exception. The few who said anything were upset I left the church, no one questioned the role of Christ in my life. I am thankful there was another "crazy fanatic" who witnessed to me over a period of three years, passing out tracts in my neighborhood telling me Jesus Christ was necessary for salvation.

The problem here is the Catholic church has to claim that everyone who disagrees with it are the ones in error, that is why the claims of poor catechization even come against those who have actually sat down and read pages and pages of encyclicals, the entire CCC, and studied beyond your average Catholic. {I realize the Catholics here dont even denote the average ones in the pews, since this board is full of wannabe nuns, and priests, and the more dedicated then the norm}

They have to blame the young people--which I see constantly in Catholic articles, blame the ones who left, rather then looking around and realizing something is really wrong with their church.

Every church-and Ill throw some mainliners in the pot too who have deviated from Gods Word and follow tradition are losing people. The young people think why bother? They look at the interfaith nonsense too and think hey why not be a Buddhist or explore Wicca?

Thank God there are still Christians out in the world preaching the gospel and bringing people to Christ.

[quote]

1. A heretic and apostate who denies the truth that was taught to him and is now actively working against Jesus Christ and His church, or

2. The result of poor catechesis.

I think people choose number 2 to be polite.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [/quote]

I am not offended if you tell me I am a heretic and apostate after all it is what your church teaches. Why beat around the bush? Trust me I am not clueless to the fact that according to Roman Catholic teachings the Dalai Lama, a god man who rejects Christ has a far higher chance of getting into heaven then an EX-Catholic Christian.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Budge

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060645' date='Sep 11 2006, 11:08 AM']
Catholics never pass out tracts with rare exceptions, never preach the gospel and unless they are a religious or part of an organization never run ministries.

In my Catholic family, God and church were only for Sat. night, Sunday and mentioned at the occasional sit down meal. They are very nice people, but I know they find my desire to study God's Word to be unusual, spending that "many hours on religious pursuits".
[/quote]

I'm truly sorry that your family didn't give you a good example. However, my Catholic family, our Catholic family, is much longer and has many thousands of saints who each spent many hours on religious pursuits.

You well know that Christ's Church isn't composed of completely dedicated people. The difference arises in that most not-so-serious Catholics still feel compelled to go to Mass and to be a part of the Catholic culture. They still go to Church and you can see them, but they are not following the faith. The difference is that in many fundamentalist circles, if you don't believe, you don't go. So of course, all the on-fire fundamentalists are just about the only people in a fundamentalist service. Naturally, that makes it seem that fundamentalists are all great Christians. That, though, is only because those who leave the fundamentalist communities really do leave. Now, then you have to ask yourself this question: while the fundamentalists are out trying to get people to come in, the Catholic Church is doing that (albeit not so often in the same ways) AND is trying to convert those who are going to Mass without actually being involved. Now, considering that there are hundreds of somewhat unbelieving people in some parishes every week (it's different from one parish to another), and the Church is reaching out to them AND to others who don't even profess to be Catholic, who is doing more evangelization?

If you want too see Catholic role models, look to our saints and to our faithful, not to those who come to Mass with unfaithful hearts. That would be like me looking at the people who stop going to your church as an example of people who do go to your church.

[Budge]

Who says my family was unfaithful, as far as Catholic goes with the fact that both parents were quite involved in the Catholic school and my mother's best friend was a nun, my family as far as Catholicism goes couldnt have been mistaken for anything else. How many Catholics actually talk about God on a daily basis even the ones who are considered FAITHFUL?


The Faithful Catholic, is different from the faithful Christian. The Christian is out in the streets witnessing passing out tracts, preaching the gospel, running ministries, living for God daily while the faithful Catholic may go to Mass more often or visit a few shrines {My family did that as well by the way} the focus is far different. The Faithful Catholic focuses on the Catholic church as their means to salvation. The Faithful Christian focuses on Jesus Christ.


The unfaithful Catholics who still go to church merely ignore some of the rules, and go to Mass a bit less or say a few less rosaries.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Budge

[mariahLVzJP2]

A faithful Catholic [i]is[/i] a faithful Christian. You do know Catholics are the first Christians right?

[Budge]

One can believe they are a Christian and be anything but.

The Catholic church teaches salvatuion via their religious system.

Unless one has been born again and has put their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation...they are sunk.

That includes Baptists, mainliners and anyone.

[MIKolbe]

Budge-

All i have to say is.. AMEN!

That was one of the best opinions i have ever read on PM.

Allow me to comment on them point by point

1) [i]Catholics never pass out tracts with rare exceptions, never preach the gospel and unless they are a religious or part of an organization never run ministries. [/i]

i think your 'rare exceptions' clause may not be as rare as you think... but yes.. when i go to Target or Walmart, there are many times 'Christian' churches trying to evangelize. And only the JW's and Mormons knock at my door. I did have a fundy stop by, but we ended up agreeing to disagree and had some lemonade...I, for one, have never been handed a Catholic track.. though some have been left on my car.

2) [i]In my Catholic family, God and church were only for Sat. night, Sunday and mentioned at the occasional sit down meal. They are very nice people, but I know they find my desire to study God's Word to be unusual, spending that "many hours on religious pursuits".[/i]

i saw this alot as a child, too. Let's say some prayers, go to Church when we have to, and be on our way.

3) [i]There were no other Bible Studies, no ministries, no dinners save a once a year picnic, and no fellowship at that church whatsoever.
...I have found most Catholic congregations to be bored, and going through the motions.
...the enthusiasm in most Catholic churches is extremely lacking. [/i]

Again great points. I have experienced all of this in the Church. Except i think the first sentence does not queue up with my experience.

4) as for the RE class, what big egos others have... I had a similar experience, though certainly not has horrible as you explain it, when i was teaching confirmation for adults.

5) [i]One thing I realized was different in a Christian church is that people cared about you as an individual. [/i]

I never felt this, but i am not implying you did not as well. And that is sad, for ANY Church claiming to teach and live as Christ did, NOT to care about you as an individual.

6) [i]The problem here is the Catholic church has to claim that everyone who disagrees with it are the ones in error, [/i]

That is because they are. No disrespect. And i think many people use 'poorly catechized' as a crutch or as a nice way of saying 'if you would be open to what these 'things' really mean, instead of forcing your private interpretation on it, you no longer be in error. But, since you were probably taught this, you were poorly catechized.'

7) [i]They have to blame the young people--which I see constantly in Catholic articles, blame the ones who left, rather then looking around and realizing something is really wrong with their church.[/i]

I do not see this. but that does not mean it does not happen. and that IS sad. Yes, we need introspection. There are things wrong. It is a battle. But i do not believe because there are 'bad things' that happen in the Church, that the Church is, ipso facto, 'bad'. There are 'good things' that happen in the Church as well. But the Church is not, ipso facto, 'good' because of these 'good things'.

8) [i]Every church-and Ill throw some mainliners in the pot too who have deviated from Gods Word and follow tradition are losing people. [/i]

This, could probably be another thread. But yes, those who deviate from God's Word and follow traditions of men is sad and causes people to be lost. But i guess you and i see differently on what that 2nd sentence means....



But, now I take all that and say, 'Therefore, what?'

Because of this, the Catholic Church is evil, the Antichrist, full of traditions of men, and is leading men in an un-triumphal procession in hell?

I guess i do not come to that conclusion.

I see a difference between 'The Church' and SOME 'people in the Church'. Don't worry, they will get their's. Just because they 'belong' to the Catholic Church is not heavenly mandate to do whatever the hell they want.

It sounds like to me you have been, and pardon my french, beesh-slapped by Catholicism. For this, i am sorry. I have always sensed anger from you, and it seems to have some justifiable roots.

I am not expected, by the Catholic Church, to be lead blindly with no recourse...

As Canon 212:2-3 states:

“The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.”


Furthermore, I think you, Budge, have helped us. For this I thank God. We all need to live our Catholic faith more. We all need to spread the good news to all nations.

Maybe we can get some PM tracks going..i know i can get the printing donated.

Maybe I can find more courage to speak with someone about my personal relationship with Jesus. Maybe we all can.

Budge, forgive those who pushed you away.

Our arms are open... come home.

I will pray for you, and for us all.

With a brother's love,

MIKolbe

[Jaime]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060684' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:12 PM']
One can believe they are a Christian and be anything but.

The Catholic church teaches salvatuion via their religious system.

Unless one has been born again and has put their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation...they are sunk.

That includes Baptists, mainliners and anyone.
[/quote]


Oh Budgie

Our "system" is Jesus Christ himself.

[Budge]

Hey thanks for the more honest thought out response.



I was witnessed to by many Christians during UU years, ranging from born again Chrsitians in college to street preachers and Christians I personally knew. You do understand while there are false cults that preach COME INTO OUR CHURCH SYSTEM--Mormons and JW, there are folks out there working to bring people to Christ.

Sounds like you have been there regarding your confirmation class and more.


4) as for the RE class, what big egos others have... I had a similar experience, though certainly not has horrible as you explain it, when i was teaching confirmation for adults.[/quote]

Glad you admit this, it is a shame isnt it?

[quote]
I never felt this, but i am not implying you did not as well. And that is sad, for ANY Church claiming to teach and live as Christ did, NOT to care about you as an individual.
[/quote]

This happens in every church that departs from the gospel. If there is no Holy Spirit there is no love. Social justice gospel actually brings less help to the down and out, because its the same as the welfare office, if the Holy Spirit isnt convicting fellow Christians to really truly help each other in Gods love.

[quote]
But, now I take all that and say, 'Therefore, what?'

Because of this, the Catholic Church is evil, the Antichrist, full of traditions of men, and is leading men in an un-triumphal procession in hell?

I guess i do not come to that conclusion.

I see a difference between 'The Church' and SOME 'people in the Church'. Don't worry, they will get their's. Just because they 'belong' to the Catholic Church is not heavenly mandate to do whatever the hell they want.

It sounds like to me you have been, and pardon my french, beesh-slapped by Catholicism. For this, i am sorry. I have always sensed anger from you, and it seems to have some justifiable roots.[/quote]

I dont know how Catholics here come up with this SOME people in the church stuff.

Like there is some fantasty Catholic Church, where people are preaching salvation in Christ door to door, where the clergy arent living a seperated wealthy life of prestige hiding sex abusers, where Gods Word comes before tradition and true doctrine is being taught.

Interfaithism is the norm, not the exception in the Catholic Church. Lukewarmness is the norm.
Preaching the antichrist gospel of the United Nations is the norm and being done by the Popes. Teaching unscriptural traditions ranging from Purgatory to the Assumption of Mary is the NORM not the exception.

I was not abused by any Catholics, in fact while I was denied the gospel, I was friendly with most of the nuns, and priests. As I wrote in another thread, I volunteered in my last Catholic Church, had friends there and taught RE. Most Catholics are nice people who have good intentions, the problem is in a nutshell is they are trapped in a false religious system under a leadership that lies to them.

If I am angry about anything it is the fact that I almost died and went to hell in my 20s {health problems} and what I missed in not having a relationship with God for all those years.

Every ex-Catholic Christian will attest to that anger, and I beleive it is a righteous anger. I am also angry that millions of people are being lied to, and taught the false antichrist gospel and false Catholic teachings that will lead them to hell. I am angry for all the people being hurt by the lies of the Vatican.

So am I angry?

Yes but not for the reasons you describe.
[quote]

“The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.”

[/quote]

What is your recourse in the Catholic Church but to write a letter to the bishop that will be thrown in the trash?

Every Catholic I know who has stood up against the system has been slapped down by the leadership.

That includes some good guy priests who have stood up against the homosexuality and abuse, we have explored those cases on my board everyone was censored and abused by bishops and Cardinals.

These are todays apostles?

The Bible tells you to leave the system knowing it is corrupt. Catholics who think Rome will change are sadly deluded. God tells you to COME OUT OF HER. Some newly saved people in the Catholic church have this false idea, but the Holy Spririt shows them the only true answer there is is to leave the wolves in sheep's clothing to their own destruction.


Put God first instead of the Roman Catholic institution Mikolbe, see where He leads you.

No church system will save you.

Put your trust in God instead of the Vatican.

The Catholic Mass does not bring graces but is an offront to God. Most Catholics simply do not know, I will post about this later.

Catholics also do not know what they are missing from lacking true Christian fellowship and the edifcation of fellow believers who are on fire for the Lord.

[quote]
Oh Budgie

Our "system" is Jesus Christ himself.[/quote]

That is where you are mistaken.

Knowing Jesus Christ is life-changing. Going through rituals, rites, and following religious rules does not equate a true relationship with God, where you obey His Commandments because you LOVE HIM and realize what God has done for you. John 3:16.

No religious system, church or rituals or rites will save you, only TOTAL TRUST in JESUS CHRIST.

[quote]Man’s religion, especially in the Church, is built upon an appeal to the senses. Her devotees are occupied with beads and bells, statues and crucifixes, candlesticks and sacred objects, robes and incense; so far has she departed from the teachings of Paul and from his declaration that we walk by faith, not by sight (II Cor. 5:7). Lingering still among the types and shadows of primitive ages and mingling these with meaningless pagan rituals, she keeps millions from trusting and rejoicing in an already accomplished redemption[b]. We beg those who read these lines to look in faith to the risen, exalted Christ and to trust in His finished work[/b]: Who... when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high (Heb. 1:3). This Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God (Heb. 10:12). This is clear enough. Our Lord came to earth to accomplish our redemption and, having accomplished it, He returned to heaven and sat down with His Father. The work was finished. And now He invites us to rest in His finished work. THERE REMAINETH THEREFORE A REST TO THE PEOPLE OF GOD. FOR HE THAT HATH ENTERED INTO HIS REST, HE ALSO HATH CEASED FROM HIS OWN WORKS, AS GOD DID FROM HIS (Heb. 4:9,1[/quote]

C Spurgeon.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Budge

[scardella]

Budge and Eutychus,

Thank you for revealing your real reason for both posting on here with such fervor and your absolute rejection of Catholicism.

You are evaluating your religion based on the percieved fervor of its participants, not on the truth or lack thereof upon which it stands. Not everything is as it appears to you. I've seen Catholic communities equally or more fervent than fundamentalist churches. There are non-Christians which are equally fervent or even more fervent than most Christians. Islamists, anyone? You can't blame them for not being fervent about their beliefs. I think that sufficiently shows that the commitment, fervor, sincerity of belief, etc. often has little to do with the rightness or wrongness of those beliefs. (Yes, I realize that it's a double-edged sword.)

As for studying the bible, I've had multiple Scripture classes, and I know plenty of Catholics familiar with the bible. I also know people that give quite generously. I give what I can. I do find that Catholics tend to give more in terms of time and talent rather than cash. All your talk of fundamentalists being somehow better Christians because they're giving more is a bunch of hogwash.

The reason you hear so much about catechesis from Catholics is because we care about the truth. Some naively think that all you have to do to evangelize is show them the truth. Unfortunately, that's assuming that emotions aren't playing a huge role in the decisions made. You seem to be carrying quite a bit of bitterness towards the Catholic Church. As I can see it, I can be a fervent fundy or an equally fervent Catholic, but as a Catholic I have access to so much more grace, namely in the sacraments. I also have an institution which guards the truth of the faith.

As a final note, I'd like to add that Christians were celebrating the Sacraments before the bible was composed. Before Paul wrote any of his letters, they were celebrating Mass. They just referred to it as "Breaking of the Bread." Before the books of the bible were definitively defined, they practiced baptism, anointing of the sick, confession, confirmation, matrimony and holy orders. They even had a pope before there was a bible.

BTW, Eutychus, I'd almost guess you were a certain guy I met in Pittsburgh a couple years ago in Market Square while I was doing homeless ministry for FUS.

[Budge]

[quote]
You are evaluating your religion based on the percieved fervor of its participants, not on the truth or lack thereof upon which it stands. Not everything is as it appears to you. I've seen Catholic communities equally or more fervent than fundamentalist churches. There are non-Christians which are equally fervent or even more fervent than most Christians. Islamists, anyone? You can't blame them for not being fervent about their beliefs. I think that sufficiently shows that the commitment, fervor, sincerity of belief, etc. often has little to do with the rightness or wrongness of those beliefs. (Yes, I realize that it's a double-edged sword.)
[/quote]

I believe the lack of fervency is centered on the fact that the doctrines of Catholicism are false.

You cannot claim we left Catholicism due to only the failings of its members.

I left because Catholicism is not TRUE, and is the counterfeit church warned of in Revelation.

I reject the Mass, Sacraments, Purgatory, Eucharist, Papal infallibility, apostolic succession among dozens of Catholic doctrines, disciplines and teachings as UNTRUE.

I have noticed the Catholics faith is centered in their church and its sacraments which keep them tied to the system throughout their life, my faith is centered in Jesus Christ.

[CatholicCid]

I find this topic as quite amusing...

I must be in the twilight zone, for I have never seen anyone on the street passing out tracts or giving speeches, ect... except for Catholics that I had the pleasure of meeting.

The Catholic Church out here provides aid to those who need it. It sends out groups on missionary work to areas that need it. It is the only Church in this area that leaves it's doors open 24/7 incase someone has no place warm to sleep.

The Church out here offers about 3 different types of Bible Studies during the week.

This is just a short list of activities it does.

Edited September 11, 2006 by CatholicCid

[Eutychus]

[quote]
The reason you hear so much about catechesis from Catholics is because we care about the truth. [/quote]

Really?

Over the past few years, I have seen polling done by Catholics ON Catholics coming out of Mass.

In one, only 40% even knew what Transubstantiation even was, when told, most thought it was a protestant lie.

In another, only 20% of Catolics leaving Mass at a BASILICA in the USA, could accurately tell what the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception MEANT! 80% of those departing mass thought it referred to the conception of Jesus without Joseph's assistance.

So, may I suggest, that Massgoers { presumably the better class of RCs } when tested, know squat about anything regarding the Catholic Church, and even less when quizzed on bible matters.

So much for Catechesis of the pew classes. If you get those two wrong, as most do, PRAY TELL, what ARE they teaching there on Sundays?

NOTHING. that is what, nothing at all. It is a REQUIREMENT that you be there, and they produce a Mass. They { the clerics } pretend to lead, and you { the laity } pretend to follow. One big massive fraud, everyone knows, and no one cares.

[scardella]

You know, y'all make me laugh.

[quote name='Budge' post='1060712' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:54 PM']
I believe the lack of fervency is centered on the fact that the doctrines of Catholicism are false.

You cannot claim we left Catholicism due to only the failings of its members.

I left because Catholicism is not TRUE, and is the counterfeit church warned of in Revelation.

I reject the Mass, Sacraments, Purgatory, Eucharist, Papal infallibility, apostolic succession among dozens of Catholic doctrines, disciplines and teachings as UNTRUE.

I have noticed the Catholics faith is centered in their church and its sacraments which keep them tied to the system throughout their life, my faith is centered in Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

The Eucharist is Jesus. Sacraments rock my socks, and they'll rock yours, if you let it.

You haven't made any good arguments for them yet. It's funny how much more indoctrinated you sound than us.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060531' date='Sep 10 2006, 11:21 PM']
My Roman Catholic family, thinks I'm NUTSO for doing all that....they are "good Catholics" and ALWAYS make sure they go to Mass, at least once a month, and they always make sure to leave a $5 bill in the basket whenever they do... { despite them being borderline filthy rich... }
[/quote]


I think I see where your venom comes from...

So instead of evaluating each person as an individual, you decided to judge the entire 1.1 billion of us and the Church as a whole based on the actions/inactions of two peeps? Granted, the example they set is not a good one...but it hardly justifies apostasy.

Maybe you should look harder for some good examples of Catholicism and some peeps living the life...Mother Theresa and JP2 are good to start with.

As a layperson, I kinda take offense with being grouped in with cafeteria Catholics (yep - they exist...too darned many of em too). For your examples:

1. we start with a 10% tithe (from the GROSS)
2. we add some on top of that for Sharing in Ministry
3. we give extra when there are second collections
4. we sponsor a family in Guatemala
5. I volunteer as a youth group sponsor/chaperone
6. I teach 2 CCD classes weekly
7. I keep the parish LAN and website running
8. our daughter is a server and in the youth choir and in the youth group
9. we attend Mass at least weekly, often more than that

BTW - I am not the only one in the parish like that - many many others do the same or more..

***HUMILITY ALERT*** not doing this to toot my horn, but merely as an illustration against broad judgements...I KNOW I have quite a ways to go in my walk... ***

[quote name='Budge' post='1060712' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:54 PM']
I believe the lack of fervency is centered on the fact that the doctrines of Catholicism are false.

You cannot claim we left Catholicism due to only the failings of its members.

I left because Catholicism is not TRUE, and is the counterfeit church warned of in Revelation.

I reject the Mass, Sacraments, Purgatory, Eucharist, Papal infallibility, apostolic succession among dozens of Catholic doctrines, disciplines and teachings as UNTRUE.

I have noticed the Catholics faith is centered in their church and its sacraments which keep them tied to the system throughout their life, my faith is centered in Jesus Christ.
[/quote]


O RLY?

I believe the lack of fervency is centered on the fact that the doctrines of Catholicism are false - back it up...

You cannot claim we left Catholicism due to only the failings of its members - back it up...

I left because Catholicism is not TRUE, and is the counterfeit church warned of in Revelation - back it up...

I reject the Mass, Sacraments, Purgatory, Eucharist, Papal infallibility, apostolic succession among dozens of Catholic doctrines, disciplines and teachings as UNTRUE - back it up...

I have noticed the Catholics faith is centered in their church and its sacraments which keep them tied to the system throughout their life, my faith is centered in Jesus Christ - so untrue...but feel free to try to back it up....

[Eutychus]

[quote] As a layperson, I kinda take offense with being grouped in with cafeteria Catholics (yep - they exist...too darned many of em too). For your examples:

1. we start with a 10% tithe (from the GROSS)
2. we add some on top of that for Sharing in Ministry
3. we give extra when there are second collections
4. we sponsor a family in Guatemala
5. I volunteer as a youth group sponsor/chaperone
6. I teach 2 CCD classes weekly
7. I keep the parish LAN and website running
8. our daughter is a server and in the youth choir and in the youth group
9. we attend Mass at least weekly, often more than that

BTW - I am not the only one in the parish like that - many many others do the same or more..[/quote]

Amazing!

Seriously, congrats.

I knew they were out there somewhere, but you are the first one I've encountered outside of the clergy.

You are to be highly praised and should be seen as a real rolemodel.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060712' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:54 PM']
I believe the lack of fervency is centered on the fact that the doctrines of Catholicism are false.

You cannot claim we left Catholicism due to only the failings of its members.

I left because Catholicism is not TRUE, and is the counterfeit church warned of in Revelation.

I reject the Mass, Sacraments, Purgatory, Eucharist, Papal infallibility, apostolic succession among dozens of Catholic doctrines, disciplines and teachings as UNTRUE.

I have noticed the Catholics faith is centered in their church and its sacraments which keep them tied to the system throughout their life, my faith is centered in Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

You have anecdotal evidence, nothing more. You have noticed means you think. You do not know the hearts of Catholics. You are only a person. Too much of your enmity seems directed at people as opposed to the Church. The hypocrisy you percieved is hypocrisy. That means it's at odds with the teachings. The lack of fervor is told of in the Bible many times, I think.

Again, that's people. Leave the personal actions out of it and discuss the teachings.

[MIKolbe]

Budge-

Thank you for your kind words as you started your response. I enjoy a civil dialog. I hope you are 'ok' now in terms of your health.

I think we agree and disagree at the same time. Though this seems odd. and is hard for me to put into words. maybe i think your base argument is correct, but your extrapolation is off-base. again, i am just being honest,...but i feel some truth in the words you write. And that is an honest feeling i have.

I will read your words again and pray. I will have something for you later...be patient.... I am really not that smart... i am just a fool for Christ... maybe if i see you online i will PM you too, would you mind that?

Peace and God's Blessings be upon you.

MIKolbe

[Jaime]

[quote]That is where you are mistaken.

Knowing Jesus Christ is life-changing. Going through rituals, rites, and following religious rules does not equate a true relationship with God, where you obey His Commandments because you LOVE HIM and realize what God has done for you. John 3:16.

No religious system, church or rituals or rites will save you, only TOTAL TRUST in JESUS CHRIST.
[/quote]

Knowing Jesus is life changing. Applying the sacraments he gave to us is life changing. And yes our trust is in Jesus Christ.

John 3:16? I'm at a loss.. Anyone familiar with this passage? It seems pretty obscure to me. Anyone?


Bueller?