Pope Praying To A Statue?

[Budge]

Do you even know what ended up happening to that molten snake?
[quote]
So, you're saying that being a fan of ANYONE other than God is a sin?[/quote]

I believe celebrity worship is a sin, where people hold up other human beings to an impossible level ignoring their foilbles and seeing them as being perfect.

It isnt real either, because people love a PR IMAGE of a person not even knowing the real person...{THAT IS TRUE FOR THE POPE BY THE WAY}

So rock music fans who scream and try to rip pieces of clothing off rock stars are sinning.

Those young people who pattern their lives on Britney Spears or whoever is the latest thing--I dont keep track, are sinning.

Anyone who looks to the examples of STARS {interesting name for famous people} more then Jesus Christ are indeed sinning.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060750' date='Sep 11 2006, 01:28 PM']


We DONT WORSHIP STATUES...

same falsehoods line for line.

[/quote]


Absafrigging amazing! Budge has been told point blank (many times) that we do not worship statues. Even had it pointed out the the CCC that we do not worship statues. STILL refuses to believe it.

Guess wot Budge? The Earth...better sit for this one...is....ROUND!! *GASPS*

Edited September 11, 2006 by Groo the Wanderer

[Budge]

[quote]

Is this the Word according to Budge? Billy Graham? That Chick character? Who are you to say "Um, no you're wrong." I am not agreeing with Buddhist religious teachings, but if they say they KNOW THAT THEY STATUES ARE NOT GOD, then what is the issue? Hasn't your question/concern been answered?[/quote]

So wow, NOVUS ORDO Catholics no longer consider BUDDHISTS AND HINDUS idolators?

Oh yeah I have to forget how you all are merging together.

[img]http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/058_BuddhistRetreat.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.urbandharma.org/niw05/pictures/slide30.jpg[/img]

Buddhist Catholic nun pow-wow, they worshipped together even.

[Eutychus]

Now we don't say you WORSHIP THE PLASTER itself.

We know you don't.

You DO, however, make them, serve them, and venerate, bow before, give gifts to, bring money to, dress up, fly to visit, and do massive work to maintain, transport, show, make, use, and protect.

Every last one of which, is equally condemned.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Eutychus

[kujo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060760' date='Sep 11 2006, 02:35 PM']
Do you even know what ended up happening to that molten snake?
I believe celebrity worship is a sin, where people hold up other human beings to an impossible level ignoring their foilbles and seeing them as being perfect.

It isnt real either, because people love a PR IMAGE of a person not even knowing the real person...{THAT IS TRUE FOR THE POPE BY THE WAY}

So rock music fans who scream and try to rip pieces of clothing off rock stars are sinning.

Those young people who pattern their lives on Britney Spears or whoever is the latest thing--I dont keep track, are sinning.

Anyone who looks to the examples of STARS {interesting name for famous people} more then Jesus Christ are indeed sinning.
[/quote]
Umm....I think the correct term here is DUH!

Celebrity worship IS a sin.

Believing that anyone (save Jesus Christ) is perfect IS a sin (and also simply-stupid).

But none of this has anything to do with the Pope. He is NOT perfect. He is in a position that people look up to him and admire him. Whether it's in his writings, his speaking, or his prayers, people think he's a good guy. So where's the sin? They get excited because they are in the presence of a good guy. Sure, he's holy and people are attracted to that, but they would be the first to say that he is NOT perfect.

As far as getting excited at a rock concert, there's no way you can believe what you say. Yelling and screaming and being loud is a SIN? Whatever happened to "make a joyful noise to the Lord?" I would agree with you that trying rip off someone's clothes (regardless of who they are) is probably not a good thing to be doing (note the sarcasm here, please), but, really, come on!

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060760' date='Sep 11 2006, 01:35 PM']

I believe celebrity worship is a sin, where people hold up other human beings to an impossible level ignoring their foilbles and seeing them as being perfect.

[/quote]


ANOTHER FAMOUS MISQUOTE!! The question posed was if being a FAN of someone is a sin. The answer: '...celebrity worship is a sin'.

Budge has now not only put forth themself as a pope with personal interpretation, but has also supplanted Webster in rewriting the dictionary.

Now all take heed...being a fan has been redefined as worshipping....

I guess that means I worship Twinkies, 'cause I love 'em so...and I worship Barry Manilow 'cause I love his music (ducks from thrown shoes). <------sarcasm, btw

Trying to dialogue with Budge kind of reminds me of the class clown:

teacher: Johnny, what is 2+2?
Johnny: well, yellow and blue make green!




[quote name='Budge' post='1060766' date='Sep 11 2006, 01:40 PM']
So wow, NOVUS ORDO Catholics no longer consider BUDDHISTS AND HINDUS idolators?

Oh yeah I have to forget how you all are merging together.

[img]http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/058_BuddhistRetreat.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.urbandharma.org/niw05/pictures/slide30.jpg[/img]

Buddhist Catholic nun pow-wow, they worshipped together even.
[/quote]


Note how he/she never answers the question....typical...

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060738' date='Sep 11 2006, 02:14 PM']
One of my son's best friends is a Hindu. We have gone to their temple twice now for a community foodfestival, when there, I asked the same question..."do you believe that the statues there are invested with the spirit of the god it reprensents?"

The priest answered me "No, that is silly, we are all educated here, the statue merely REPRESENTS the god or goddess."[/quote]That's fine. But, we [u]don't[/u] believe that the statues represent a god or goddess. We believe that they are artistic works that recall particular believers from the past. The only claim that these people had were that they were faithful to the Gospel.

As for statues that represent the One God (e.g. Our Lord crucified, the Holy Spirit as a dove, etc), we've got archaeological proof that this has been around since the early Christians in the catacombs of Rome. Probably the most common statue, the Crucifix, is entirely consistent with the words of St. Paul ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians1.htm#v23"]link[/url]):[quote name='1 Cor 1:23']But we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,[/quote]We use the crucifix as a visual aid to recall Our Lord's sacrifice. Think of the crucifix and other statues as 3D Powerpoint slides. Or, think of PowerPoint slides as 2D statues. Wait...PowerPoint slides are images. Image worship! LOL

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060738' date='Sep 11 2006, 02:14 PM'][img]http://www.hindunet.org/god/Gods/krishna/krishna.jpg[/img]

Note the simularities, crown, halo, etc...[/quote]I also note other similarities: two eyes, one nose, somewhat human-looking.

[quote name='Budge' post='1060760' date='Sep 11 2006, 02:35 PM']Do you even know what ended up happening to that molten snake?[/quote]Of course, I do. But, does this make the creation of the bronze snake wrong? Did God make a mistake or break one of His own commandments? Of course not.

There is no argument that some uses of statues in worship are considered idolotry. My point is: the Holy Bible cannot be used to support a claim that [u]all[/u] uses of statues are idolotry. To absolutely reject the licit use of statues in worship is to reject God's own commands in the Old Testament.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060768' date='Sep 11 2006, 02:42 PM']
Now we don't say you WORSHIP THE PLASTER itself.

We know you don't.

You DO, however, make them, serve them, and venerate, bow before, give gifts to, bring money to, dress up, fly to visit, and do massive work to maintain, transport, show, make, use, and protect.

Every last one of which, is equally condemned. [/quote]Every last one is equally condemned? You sound pretty sure of yourself.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

notice the "nuns" lack habits... that already explains a lot.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1060770' date='Sep 11 2006, 02:46 PM']Note how he/she never answers the question....typical...[/quote]Post enough of these pictures from traditionalist websites, and Eutychus might be made an honorary member of SSPX. LOL

[Winchester]

Well, since we're pointing out similarities in religious symbols and thereby "proving" that Catholic art is pagan, let's remember that religions before Chrisitanity had their gods die and be reborn as well.

I'm sure this proves that Jesus is just an adaptation of those myths.

[OLAM Dad]

[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/materdei/insidescr-2.jpg[/img]


Even our statues worship statues.

[mariahLVzJP2]

[KnightofChrist]

Dont understand Mary with the moon under her feet, and how the statue tells a story, and the pope honors that story?

READ THE HOLY BIBLE! It's that easy...


[quote]And a great sign appeared in heaven: [b]A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet,[/b] and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. 3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

[color="#FF0000"]1 "A woman"... The church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady. The church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet: and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions.[/color]

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days. 7 And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: 8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night. [/quote]

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1060796' date='Sep 11 2006, 03:45 PM']
Well, since we're pointing out similarities in religious symbols and thereby "proving" that Catholic art is pagan, let's remember that religions before Chrisitanity had their gods die and be reborn as well.

I'm sure this proves that Jesus is just an adaptation of those myths.[/quote]Muslims love to attack Christianity by using parallels (albeit stretched) with Hinduism, etc. Their favorite attacks are against the Incarnation and the Trinity. And in both cases, they try to make connections with Hinduism or some pre-Christian religion.

For example, some Muslim apologists actually stole their attacks on Christianity from an atheist website and ended up making the claim that the Virgin Birth or Our Lord was plagiarized from the Hindu story of Krishna. The irony is that the Quran teaches that the virgin birth actually happened. LOL

[XIX]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060768' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:42 PM']
Now we don't say you WORSHIP THE PLASTER itself.

We know you don't.

You DO, however, make them, [b]serve them[/b], and [b]venerate[/b], bow before, [b]give gifts to,[/b] [b]bring money to,[/b] dress up, fly to visit, [b]and do massive work [/b] to maintain, transport, show, make, use, and protect.

Every last one of which, is equally condemned.
[/quote]
Strawmen in bold. We do those for the saints themselves, not the statues. Just FYI.

Phatmass has already used to Bible to prove that the others are not condemned.

[quote name='Budge' post='1060687' date='Sep 11 2006, 11:16 AM']
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Mariensaeule.jpg/600px-Mariensaeule.jpg[/img]
Why does Jesus always come as an afterthought in these monologues?

Things get really weird when the Pope puts YOU and descripters of statue in same sentence. We gave you a crown and scepter...No they gave a hunk of golden metal a crown and scepter.
[/quote]
I should go leave flowers by my Godmother's grave. And pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet for her soul.

[Eutychus]

[quote] As for statues that represent the One God (e.g. Our Lord crucified, the Holy Spirit as a dove, etc), we've got archaeological proof that this has been around since the early Christians in the catacombs of Rome. Probably the most common statue, the Crucifix, is entirely consistent with the words of St. Paul (link):[/quote]

Oh dear historical and biblical illiterate...

The "cross" { let alone a crucifx } was NEVER seen in Christian use for the first hundred years. It was considered horribly improper, recalling and putting to SHAME AGAIN, our Lord, who had to die the way He did, but we like the bible authors, should note what was done, but not make it into a central focus VISUALLY in our churches.

[quote]

[color="#990000"][b]THE CRUCIFIX

History

The image of the crucified Jesus first appears, according to archaeological evidence, in Rome in the 5th century; before this date, Jesus was commonly represented in the form of a lamb. Early Christians avoided pictorial use even of the simple cross, let alone the rendering of Jesus’ crucifixion, due to the ignominy associated with this form of death.[/b] [/color]The Christian communities of the ancient world, while officially affirming the dual nature of Jesus as both human and divine, concentrated more on his divine attributes than on his earthly career. Thus, the crucifix, as the preeminent symbol of Jesus’ suffering and death, would not enjoy widespread popularity and ritual use until the medieval period. [/quote]

[url="http://www.wadsworth.com/religion_d/special_features/symbols/crucifix.html"]MORE HERE[/url]

What you DON'T KNOW about history would fill volumes....sigh.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Eutychus

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060964' date='Sep 11 2006, 05:15 PM']
Oh dear historical and biblical illiterate...[/quote]

When you say such things are you standing in a hall of mirrors?

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060964' date='Sep 11 2006, 05:15 PM']
The "cross" { let alone a crucifx } was NEVER seen in Christian use for the first hundred years. It was considered horribly improper, recalling and putting to SHAME AGAIN, our Lord, who had to die the way He did, but we like the bible authors, should note what was done, but not make it into a central focus VISUALLY in our churches.
[url="http://www.wadsworth.com/religion_d/special_features/symbols/crucifix.html"]MORE HERE[/url]

What you DON'T KNOW about history would fill volumes....sigh.
[/quote]

You should learn to read The Bible before you fall over your own words.

Galatians 3:1 [color="#FF0000"]"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?"[/color] Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their "eyes", as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn't it?

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04517a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04517a.htm[/url]

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060703' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:46 PM']
I believe it is worth exposing because God preaches against idolatry.

Lets anaylze the situation, there is the Pope doing this speech in front of thousands of Germans. [/quote]

Yes lets.you need to rethink your title. No where, ANYWHERE did you show nort quote pope benidict XVI praying TO a Statue, even your quote says he is Praying AT a Statue.

[quote]
Is anyone's attention on Jesus Christ?

Is anyone's attention on the gospel?
[/quote]

If you were talking about the President would you still be thinkinking about the United States? At least for me and the cool Brain God gave me can handle it. The same way that when I think of Mary I think of Jesus, as for the Gosp[el you didn't show anything contrary to the Gospel being said.

[quote]
Is anyone's attention on God? {God is only mentoned as being a little helpless baby}
[/quote]

The attentionis always on God. as atholics we can recognize God working THROUGH other people and things, remeber when the disciples needed to pay their taxes God used a fish to help Peter get the money. The same way that we need to learn So God gives us the Church, Mary, and the Saints to HELP toteach us. Thesse things are given to us by the power of the Holy Spirit, so the verse you like to through out about the Holy Spirit tteaching us and leading us is not violated.

[quote]
It is all focused on the fancy golden statue and Mary.
[/quote]
Nooo, the fancy golden statue is focused on Mary and JESUS both of whom are wonderful.
What is the problem with showing Jesus as a Baby? Here is a news flash if you've missed the Christmas story, JESUS WAS A BABY. He was helpless and needed the help of Mary and Joseph to be raised healthy and strong.

[quote]
The Mary of the Bible would be horrified. I do see Mary as an example of a Christian believer having done Gods Will, but she was HUMBLE. She would not accept golden statues of her like a pseudo-Nebachanezzar.
[/quote]

I see you loose your barage of Biblical quotes when you decide to make things up about Mary, we at least still us ours when we make infallible statements about her.

[quote]
I go daily to Zenit and read the Pope's weekly speeches, 9 out of 10 are focused on Mary. Jesus is rarely ever mentioned and then just as an afterthought.

The Pope's real focus is bringing everyone to the queen of heaven, not a creature of heaven whatsoever.

I finished reading the book of Acts the other day again, and NOT once is MARY PRAYED to or honored in this way by the early church.
[/quote]

Good for you, hopefully God will soften your heart enough to get Truth from the Pope's messages. Mary is the Queen of Heaven if we are shown her, she shows us to her Son. She does nbot bypass her son, nor create a salvation expressway. Did you notice anything else from the book of Acts? Like Apostolic Succession begging? If not maybe you aren't reading AND praying that God reveal his truth to you. and again I said Maybe, not aren't I don't claim to know the status of your soul.

[Socrates]

Well, first of all, the Pope is not addressing a statue, but the Blessed Virgin Mary, whom the stature represents. Anyone with first-grade catechism can see that.

Secondly, before you condemn giving honor and glory to Mary as wrong and "unbiblical," you might want to read this passage from Luke's Gospel.

[quote]To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: [b]Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.[/b][/quote](Luke 1:27-28).

Even the angels give praise to Mary! (And from this Scripture comes the Catholic "Hail Mary" prayer.)

But I suppose according to your "interpretation," the angel Gabriel is really a demon from hell, bent on leading us all into the evil of Romish Idolatry!

Edited September 12, 2006 by Socrates