To Budge

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1060993' date='Sep 11 2006, 08:18 PM']
does anyone think Budge should be banned? She is not debating, only spouting nonsense.
[/quote]
Nope, cause Budge is actually talking to us now.
Hurray Budge

[Resurrexi]

[quote]The bible is not a science or history book. Never has been, never will be.
Does it contain history - absolutely!
But its not a history book.
Its a library smile.gif[/quote]

Acutally, the Holy Bible is an history book. The Old Testament is the History of the People of the Religion of the Old Covenant and the New Testament is the History of the Incarnation, Redemption and the Beginning of the Holy Catholic Church.

[quote]19 Q. Where are the truths which God has revealed contained?
A. The truths which God has revealed are contained in Holy Scripture and in Tradition.

20 Q. What is Holy Scripture?
A. Holy Scripture is the collection of books written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, by the Prophets and the Hagiographers, the Apostles and the Evangelists. These books have been received by the Church as inspired.

21 Q. How is Holy Scripture divided?
A. Holy Scripture is divided into two parts, the Old and the New Testament.

22 Q. What is the Old Testament?
A. The Old Testament comprises the inspired books written before the coming of Jesus Christ.

23 Q. What is the New Testament?
A. The New Testament comprises the inspired books written after the coming of Jesus Christ.[/quote]
~Catechism of St. Pius X

Also, the Holy Bible is INFALLALBE and FREE FROM ALL ERROR

[quote]27 Q. Can there be any error in Holy Scripture?
A. There cannot be any error in Holy Scripture since indeed it is inspired by God. The Author of all of the books is God Himself. This does not prevent that in copies and translations that have been made, some errors on the part of the copyists or translators may have crept into it.[/quote]
~Catechism of St. Pius X

[quote]Moreover, the same sacred and holy Synod,--considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,--ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many years, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.[/quote]
~Council of Trent, Session the Fourth

[quote]But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church.[/quote]
~Council of Trent, Session the Fourth

[LouisvilleFan]

Budge,

I've got a question for ya pretaining to Sola Scriptura. Ironically, it was questions I had from reading the Bible that Protestantism couldn't answer as fully as Catholicism that lead me in the opposite direction But concerning doctrine, I haven't yet found someone who can explain to me why Protestants can agree on their source of authority while disagreeing on virtually everything else. For example, I was raised in a Lutheran church and, of course, taught Sola Sciptura. I was also baptized at age 4 when my parents joined the church, along with my sister, who was an infant. I don't remember being baptized, but I've always known that I'm a baptized Christian (there's a picture of prove it ).

Now, skip ahead to a couple years ago. I was attending a Southern Baptist church and I learned that these Christians also held to Sola Scriptura, yet they did not consider me a baptized Christian. A Christian, yes, but not baptized. Now, we could get into all other points of doctrine, but Baptism is the most basic ordinance of the Church. Shouldn't we be able to agree on whether an individual is baptized or not?

Now, among the Catholic and Orthodox churches, which accept Tradition in addition to Scripture for the basis of our doctrine, there is complete agreement about all seven sacraments, doctrines pertaining to Mary, the saints, priesthood, etc. About the only real point of doctrinal disagreement relates to the primacy of the Bishop of Rome.

I'm not sure how that question can be answered, except for you to say that Lutherans falsely interpret the Bible, which then brings us to the question of who has authority to correctly interpret the Bible? How does one person have more or less authority than another? What if we all claim to be listening to the "guidance of the Holy Spirit"? There must be some tangible sign God provides. And you can't rest upon judging a preacher of the Word by their fruits because there are many Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and Baptists who all bear fruit in their lives, yet their teachings contradict. Wouldn't Christ provide some way for us to tell Peter or Paul from a heretic?

Edited September 12, 2006 by LouisvilleFan

[cmotherofpirl]

You missed my point. The Bible contains history but is not a history book, simply listing dates and wars. It is much much more than that: poetry, prophecy, hymnal, theology, liturgical manual, eyewitness accounts, letters etc.

But one cannot read the bible as a science book.

[Eutychus]

[center][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-3627.gif[/img] [/center]

[center][color="#006600"][size=6]
STUDY IT! [/size][/color][/center]

[quote]Redemption and the Beginning of the Holy Catholic Church. [/quote]

If anyone has a claim there, it is the Greeks, not the Romans.

And everyone knows that.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1061319' date='Sep 12 2006, 01:11 PM']
[center][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-3627.gif[/img] [/center]

[center][color="#006600"][size=6]
STUDY IT! [/size][/color][/center]
If anyone has a claim there, it is the Greeks, not the Romans.

And everyone knows that.
[/quote]


You still have not responded to my (biblical) evidence that the devil can also quote scripture...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1061319' date='Sep 12 2006, 02:11 PM']
[center][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-3627.gif[/img] [/center]

[center][color="#006600"][size=6]
STUDY IT! [/size][/color][/center]
If anyone has a claim there, it is the Greeks, not the Romans.

And everyone knows that.
[/quote]
Funny, Jesus doesn't.

[Budge]

Mainline Prot churches are infested with tons of Catholicism with the first thing being sacramentalism. Ie the Reformers were able to unshackle some of the chains but didnt finish the job.

There are three types of churches--yes I knwo Im simplifying this, Liturgical--Sacramental daughters of Rome and Catholic chruch with its rites, other churches infested with liberalism--that overlaps into the liturgical churches and Bible believing churches.

I consider Lutheranism just acouple steps outside the Catholic door. I am close to someone who grew up Lutheran, and they told me straight to my face, that the Mass with the exception of longer sermons matched almost exactly to their Lutheran services.

Ive visited Episcopalian church as well, may as well been in a catholic church, same words and everything.

Study the BIBLE, then youll realize how much in churches is the tradition of men and nowhere near anything that Jesus taught! I include apostate, liberal mainline, liturgical and other Prot churches in that mix.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060820' date='Sep 11 2006, 03:30 PM']
Anyhow I realized Catholicism had been infused by error from the VERY BEGINNING which of course is something they dont agree with. It had compromised with other religions. It had brought in pagan practices. The sex scandals and other stuff was the tip of the iceberg.

What it comes down to is as a born again Christian who has put my trust in Jesus Christ alone for my salvation, I know Rome's rituals, rites, middlemen and ceremonies only put DISTANCE between people and God.
[/quote]

Two comments one for each paragraph

1) If the Catholic Church was started by Christ on Peter, and as you claim that the Church was in error from the beginning then how can you trust ANY of the Bible, since the men you said we in erroe were the ones who wrote the books. I mean Peter, Paul, John ect.

2) Again if all you get out of the Church is rituals, rites, middlemen and ceremonies then you have not listened to the Holy Spirit. Liturgies are important for our worship of God. The OT teaches so many rituals, they are not meant to distract, but help us heal and love God. Take incense is it NECESSARY? No, Does it help us show our love for God? yes. How do we know so, the OT Rituals for incense tells us burning incense is pleasing to God, he even gives a formula that one should follow, and if they use it for ANY purpose other than worshiping him they were to be cast out into the wilderness.
Rituals are good, because they allow us to use all of ourselves to worship God, senses and all.

If these things are problems that I see and after reading your post over the l;ast several then I have no problems now saying either you were not ever properly catechised (not properly catechised means hearing about Jesus' love for you, which you say you didn't), or you just had a hard heart and would not listen to anything beyond your own personal interpretation.


Side note: The following is not meant to be an attack in any way....

I feel sorry for the Children who were in Budge's RE class. If she never was properl;y catechised and shown God's love, and Jesus' redemptive suffering trhen she could not have shown it to her pupils. Please pray with me now that the kids all over the United States in bad RE classes are not turned away from the Truth that God has given the Church, and that they learn of his love for them.

Oh my Jesus, save us from the fires of hell lead all souls to heaven especially those in most need of thy mercy.
Amen
Mary the Mother of God, Pray for us
St. Joseph, Pray for Us
St. Micheal, Pray for us
St. Pio, Pray for us

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1060993' date='Sep 11 2006, 07:18 PM']
does anyone think Budge should be banned? She is not debating, only spouting nonsense.
[/quote]

Yes I do. But I doubt that will happen. Only "rad trads" get banned.

Edited September 12, 2006 by Akalyte

[Budge]

[quote]

Two comments one for each paragraph

1) If the Catholic Church was started by Christ on Peter, and as you claim that the Church was in error from the beginning then how can you trust ANY of the Bible, since the men you said we in erroe were the ones who wrote the books. I mean Peter, Paul, John ect.
[/quote]

Because I trust in God's Word.

I know men write fallible history and the "winners" of history change things to suit their own interests.
[font="Book Antiqua"]
Pro 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.[/font]

[quote]
2) Again if all you get out of the Church is rituals, rites, middlemen and ceremonies then you have not listened to the Holy Spirit. Liturgies are important for our worship of God. The OT teaches so many rituals, they are not meant to distract, but help us heal and love God. Take incense is it NECESSARY? No, Does it help us show our love for God? yes. How do we know so, the OT Rituals for incense tells us burning incense is pleasing to God, he even gives a formula that one should follow, and if they use it for ANY purpose other than worshiping him they were to be cast out into the wilderness.[/quote]

This verse sums up while your rituals, rites, middleman and ceremonies failed for me. To me they are only a form of godliness, all STYLE and NO SUBSTANCE.

2Ti 3:5 [size=4]Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
[/size]

[quote]
. Please pray with me now that the kids all over the United States in bad RE classes are not turned away from the Truth that God has given the Church, and that they learn of his love for them.[/quote]

The kids in my RE class were all agnostics with one outspoken atheist. They were already lost long before I got there. Most of them told me they found church boring and meaningless to their lives, and did not feel that God cared.
I snuck in as much as I could about God, in the dull boring lesson plans which I was not allowed to deviate from but since I was not born again yet, was soon to be, I did not have the Holy Spirit to share with those kids. I have prayed for them since then.

Edited September 12, 2006 by Budge

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

Yes Budge having the form of Godliness, but denying the power turn away...

Catholic liturgy does not deny the POWER of God. in Fact isn't the Mass about the Power of God? The Eucharist IS Christ's Body and Blood given to us. I see Prtoestant communion as a form of godliness that denies the power.

[Eutychus]

[quote] You still have not responded to my (biblical) evidence that the devil can also quote scripture...[/quote]

Yes, absolutely, he can.

Unlike many of the 12 year old popes.

[Budge]

[quote]Catholic liturgy does not deny the POWER of God. in Fact isn't the Mass about the Power of God? The Eucharist IS Christ's Body and Blood given to us. I see Prtoestant communion as a form of godliness that denies the power.[/quote]

Yes it does.

In every other Biblical TRUE miracle something happens.

The Catholic clergy have to come up with excuses like Transubstantiation to convince the deluded a MIRACLE has really happened, even though you cant, see, hear, smell or taste it.

Its like the Israelites really SWAM across the RED SEA, got on the banks and then said GEE LOOK GOD SPLIT THE RED SEA, WE JUST IMAGINED WE GOT WET! THE ACCIDENTS WERE REALLY DRY LAND......

Only Catholicism would have folks worship an INERT OBJECT as being God!

[img]http://extremecatholic.blogspot.com/images/holy-communion.jpg[/img]

Edited September 12, 2006 by Budge

[Justified Saint]

Strictly speaking the Eucharist is not necessarily a miracle since a miracle by definition is something that doesn't happen often -- something extra-ordinary.

Christ has given us the command to celebrate his death and rising from the dead and thus the sacrament is celebrated in obdience. That doesn't mean it rules out divine and supernatural intervetion and in that sense it can be called miraculous. It is just like the commandment to love. We should always be creatures of love and love is truly divine. I suspect that by the fundamentalist definition nothing [i]really happens[/i] when one loves.

Edited September 12, 2006 by Justified Saint

[Eutychus]

[quote] Isa 2:8

Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:[/quote]

[img]http://www.ponkawonka.com/sample/christian/preview/pre_christian-photo-1-131-2.jpg[/img]

[quote]Hebrews 9:11 (KJV) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, [u]not made with hands[/u] [/quote]

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1061545' date='Sep 12 2006, 04:54 PM']
The Catholic clergy have to come up with excuses like Transubstantiation to convince the deluded a MIRACLE has really happened, even though you cant, see, hear, smell or taste it.[/quote]
Not all of us are doubting Thomases who need to stick our finger in the Lord's side and in his palms to believe he has risen. Faith comes before understanding.

[quote] 24
Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
25
So the other disciples said to him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe."
26
Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
27
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe."
28
17 Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29
18 Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
John 20:24-29
[/quote]
I understand the urge to satisfy the senses in the presence of a miracle. If you wish, you can savor the effects of Eucharist delivered in the communion wafer, which is what you can see, feel, smell, and taste.
[quote]Its like the Israelites really SWAM across the RED SEA, got on the banks and then said GEE LOOK GOD SPLIT THE RED SEA, WE JUST IMAGINED WE GOT WET! THE ACCIDENTS WERE REALLY DRY LAND......[/quote]
If you keep reading Exodus, you will find numerous examples of God's disappointment in the Israelites for failing to believe without seeing. He, being kind and compassionate, performs miracles for their own sake, not His own. If the hearts of the Israelites were properly ordered, they would believe without demanding proof.

[quote]Only Catholicism would have folks worship an INERT OBJECT as being God![/quote]
It is not the object being worshipped. It is its supernatural contents, Jesus present within.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1061577' date='Sep 12 2006, 05:13 PM']
[quote]Hebrews 9:11 (KJV) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands[/quote]
[/quote]
The Catholic church does not build Christ with hands. The communion wafer is made by hands, but are simply wafers of bread without Christ. Christ is what makes simple bread into Eucharist bread.

And when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "[b]This [u]is[/u] my body[/b], which is for you; [b]do this[/b] in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:24 (NIV)

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

Budge how then do you explain the Eucharistic Micacles, where scientific studies have SHOWN that what looks like bread is actual heart tissue, or wine that actually has turned biologically into blood? what about a host the bleeds. I suppose you think these are all doctored up things to fool people into believing Christ was Salvcation for the world.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='PadrePioOfPietrelcino' post='1061643' date='Sep 12 2006, 05:09 PM']
Budge how then do you explain the Eucharistic Micacles, where scientific studies have SHOWN that what looks like bread is actual heart tissue, or wine that actually has turned biologically into blood? what about a host the bleeds. I suppose you think these are all doctored up things to fool people into believing Christ was Salvcation for the world.[/quote]Doesn't that totally debunk the entire theological argument that Christ is present as an unbloody sacrifice? Doesn't that go completely against Jesus saying his flesh is bread, he is present as bread? If anything, it refutes what the Host is supposed to be and raises the idea that a charlatan is at work.