Grace- How Do We Get It?

[Anomaly]

This is something I'd like Budge and Euty to discuss. I do agree with B & E on alot of their opinions on 'denominationalism' (though I challenge them they may be falling into the same trap, but that's for other threads to explore). One thing I do agree with basic Catholic theology is Grace as an unearned gift and our ability to choose to participate with it. I do believe B & E disagree with alot of Cath theology on that because they equate it denominational 'control'.

Let's discuss...

[Eutychus]

[quote]One thing I do agree with basic C[u]atholic theology is Grace as an unearned gift [/u]and our ability to choose to participate with it. [/quote]

Just one more example of the Catholic Decoder Ring problem.

The Catholic Church defines grace as "Free" but then IMMEDIATELY tells you that you have to "participate and enhance" grace for a lifetime { obscuring that it really thereafter is YOUR works that are the operative reality }, thereby negating what real grace really is. Just one more instance of the Catholic Church talking out of both sides of her mouth, concurrently, in order to SOUND biblical but DO works for salvation.

[quote]Catechism of the Catholic Church

2027 No one can merit the [u]initial grace [/u]which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit,[color="#660000"] [u][b][size=4]we can *** ->merit <-*** for ourselves and for others [/size]all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.[/b][/u][/color][/quote]

See, in the weird world of the Catholic, Grace is really just a DOWNPAYMENT, thereafter YOU EARN your own salvation, YOU can even EARN TOO MUCH and pass along the excess to others. The "Roman Catholic Lend-Lease Program?"

Naturally this one TOO goes against the Gospel as delivered by Paul to the early churchES that he founded. { I continually wonder why the Catholic Church invokes Paul all the time, while denying just about everything that Paul taught? }

[quote]Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
[color="#FF0000"][b]
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] t[u]he gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast[/u][/b].[/color][/quote]

One way, the Pauline way, is a totally FREE gift, offered to you and you alone.

The Catholic way is a downpayment made, and for the rest of your life you toil away to EARN your salvation, and giving to others your excess, allowing you to BOAST that your salvation is a "joint effort" with YOU being actually more important than the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Twisted.

Edited September 14, 2006 by Eutychus

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Romans 2:5-13 (KJV)']5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6[size=5]God "will give to each person according to what he has done.[/size]"[a] 7To those who by persistence in [size=6]doing good[/size] seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who [size=4]obey the law[/size] who will be declared righteous. [/quote]

Yeah, Paul never connects works and salvation.

Note that Paul never says that we're earning salvation -- our works don't obligate God to "pay" us with heaven. But we persist in doing good as a result of and with the support of God's grace and mercy ... "God's kindness leads you toward repentance" (v. 4)

[Anomaly]

Euty,
Please, dude. You are getting quite boring and annoying by establishing your theology only by stating how 'wrong' Catholic theology is without a critical and clear anlaysis. You can't build something on a negative.
Try this on for size:
Make your statement of belief.
Provide positive biblical support.
THEN contrast what you've stated with your understanding of Cath theology.

All you've done is state you disagree with Caths. State what you disagree with Caths. Then state you believe in whatever isn't Cath.
That certainly isn't enlightening.

[Budge]

Grace comes FREE from God. It is not dependent on any rituals and rites.

The Catholic Church as an instutition sees itself as a CHANNEL of Gods grace, believing all of God's graces or the majority come via themselves.

This sets up the Catholic clergy as a NECESSARY middleman between man and God, which I definitely disagree with.

[url="http://www.catholic.net/Catholic Church/Periodicals/Faith/0506-96/article1.html"]SACRAMENTS CHANNELS OF GRACE?[/url]

Christians obtain GRACE from God via FAITH.

There are no middlemen [priests] needed.
[size=4]
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.[/size]
[size=4]
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:[/size]







[quote] Then state you believe in whatever isn't Cath.[/quote]

Looks to me like he did...
[quote]

One way, the Pauline way, is a totally FREE gift, offered to you and you alone.[/quote]

[Aloysius]

if your father gives you a puppy, and tells you it's a completely free gift... do you say "aha! so I will never have to purchase any food, never have to give it any water, never have to bathe it or clean after it's messes! it is a free gift!"

no.

does doing those things make it any less of a free gift?

no.

grace is a free gift of God and works through faith, which is also a free gift of God.
faith without works is dead and puppies without food are dead.

[homeschoolmom]

dead puppies... You sure know how to lighten the mood...

[Aloysius]

mortal sin is like drowning puppies.

[homeschoolmom]

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1062582' date='Sep 14 2006, 09:59 AM']
if your father gives you a puppy, and tells you it's a completely free gift... do you say "aha! so I will never have to purchase any food, never have to give it any water, never have to bathe it or clean after it's messes! it is a free gift!"

no.

does doing those things make it any less of a free gift?

no.

grace is a free gift of God and works through faith, which is also a free gift of God.
faith without works is dead and puppies without food are dead.
[/quote]
Great analogy, Aloysius

Sad, but great

[Budge]

[quote]
if your father gives you a puppy, and tells you it's a completely free gift... do you say "aha! so I will never have to purchase any food, never have to give it any water, never have to bathe it or clean after it's messes! it is a free gift!"

no.

does doing those things make it any less of a free gift?

no.

grace is a free gift of God and works through faith, which is also a free gift of God.
faith without works is dead and puppies without food are dead.[/quote]

I think this analogy is stretching things a bit.

Works come from FAITH.

not the other way around.

If faith is a puppy, the puppy has you on the leash, not the other way around.

[Paladin]

On the sacraments thing, see Ephesians:
[quote]For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles-- assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you, how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God's grace, which was given me by the working of his power.
(Eph 3:1-7 ESV)[/quote]
Paul calls himself a "minister" and "steward" of God's Grace. That's what the priesthood and the sacraments are all about: using the ordinary channels Jesus provided for giving Grace.

[quote name='Budge' post='1062639' date='Sep 14 2006, 02:09 PM']

Works come from FAITH.

not the other way around.

If faith is a puppy, the puppy has you on the leash, not the other way around.


[/quote]
Truer words were never spoken, Budge. I'd say there's two sides to the coin: works without faith are worthless, and "faith apart from works is dead" (James 2:26).

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062639' date='Sep 14 2006, 12:09 PM']
I think this analogy is stretching things a bit.

Works come from FAITH.

not the other way around.

If faith is a puppy, the puppy has you on the leash, not the other way around.


[/quote]

Wouldn't that be ending your free will? You HAVE to do works if you have faith?

[Aloysius]

it's a magic puppy that leads you where you need to go (heaven), and it leads you to the dog food store, and it leads you to the water faucet, (faith leads you to prayer, and to the hungry and the needy and the sick and the naked and tells you what to do for them through the scriptures). but if when it leads you to the dog food store you refuse to buy the dogfood, and when it leads you to the faucet you refuse to give it water (when you do not pray and do not do good for others) then the magic puppy dies and no longer leads you where you need to go.

can you agree with this analogy?

[Eutychus]

[quote]if your father gives you a puppy, and tells you it's a completely free gift... do you say "aha! so I will never have to purchase any food, never have to give it any water, never have to bathe it or clean after it's messes! it is a free gift!" [/quote]

Oh goodie...FAITH is now a critter?

How about we restate this CORRECTLY?

[quote]if your father gives you a MILLION DOLLARS, and tells you it's a completely free gift... do you say "aha! so I will never have to purchase ANYTHING, never have to give it any ANYTHING, never have to DO ANYTHING BUT TAKE IT is IT a free gift!"[/quote]

YES.

Totally FREE.

Where you go off the tracks, into the ditch is CONFUSING JUSTIFICATION with SACTIFICATION and REWARDS with SALVATION.

They are quite the different matter. Heaven IS FREE to a true believer, however once there, we will find that our condition in the afterlife WILL BE affected by our good deads, and doings on the planet here beforehand. However, salvation itself, is not affected one way or the other by our "works as filthy rags" or anything we do, or fail to do on our own.

[Aloysius]

but my example is also a free gift, and it lines up more with scriptures (specifically the epistle of james, and the saying of paul that one must "persevere to the end")

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1062515' date='Sep 14 2006, 09:24 AM']Just one more example of the Catholic Decoder Ring problem.

Naturally this one TOO goes against the Gospel as delivered by Paul to the early churchES that he founded. { I continually wonder why the Catholic Church invokes Paul all the time, while denying just about everything that Paul taught? }[/quote]In light of Sojourner's post, here's another instance of "pot/kettle/black".

[quote]One way, the Pauline way, is a totally FREE gift, offered to you and you alone.[/quote]My favorite part of the faith-alone doctrine is that Our Lord's own words can never be used to defend it...only a selection of carefully chosen Pauline quotes.

Should we not listen to our Lord in [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew25.htm#v31"]Matthew 25:31ff[/url], when he describes how he separates the sheep from the goats? Or, when He states, "If you love Me, you will keep my commandments" ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john14.htm#v15"]John 14:15[/url])? I don't see any Protestants accusing Our Lord of making a "works-based" religion, or claiming that one needs a "decoder ring" to understand Him. And yet, it's a huge stretch to find a rigid "faith-alone" doctrine from Our Lord, Himself.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1062515' date='Sep 14 2006, 09:24 AM']The Catholic way is a downpayment made, and for the rest of your life you toil away to EARN your salvation, and giving to others your excess, allowing you to BOAST that your salvation is a "joint effort" with YOU being actually more important than the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Twisted.[/quote]Frankly, I don't know any Catholic who thinks that he is "more important that the shed blood of Jesus Christ. In any event, your caricature of Catholicism is no more twisted than St. Paul's claim that he was "filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ" ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/colossians/colossians1.htm#v24"]Col 1:24[/url]). Although, I'm sure you have some explanation that he is "alluding" to something that is "obvious" to anyone (read "any Pentacostal").

[Eutychus]

[quote] Should we not listen to our Lord in Matthew 25:31ff, when he describes how he separates the sheep from the goats? [/quote]

Matty boy....

Go READ that over VERY VERY carefully.

Blow the dust off a decent bible, crack the spine and Volia!

Guess what you will find? That passage is the JUDGEMENT OF NATIONS, not of individuals.

Of course, there being FIVE different Judgement scenario's laid out in scripture, for different groups and situations, is totally oblivious to the pew puppies, who are focusing in on purge-it-today moreso than eternal rewards.

[quote]Matthew 25:32 (KJV)[size=4] [b]And before him shall be gathered [u]all nations[/u]: and he shall [u]separate them [/u]one from another,[/b] [/size]as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:[/quote]

Missed that little nuance, didn't you Mattey boy?

Edited September 14, 2006 by Eutychus

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1062815' date='Sep 14 2006, 05:41 PM']Matty boy....

Go READ that over VERY VERY carefully.

Blow the dust off a decent bible, crack the spine and Volia!

Guess what you will find? That passage is the JUDGEMENT OF NATIONS, not of individuals.

Of course, there being FIVE different Judgement scenario's laid out in scripture, for different groups and situations, is totally oblivious to the pew puppies, who are focusing in on purge-it-today moreso than eternal rewards.
Missed that little nuance, didn't you Mattey boy?
[/quote]I'm confused. Am I "Matty boy" or "Mattey boy"?

Anyway, just the Church is like a body, made up of members (i.e. Christians), so are nations like a body, made up of citizens. The phrase "all nations" is just a way of saying that both Jews and gentiles are included in the judgment.

Just look at verse 34:[quote name='Matthew 25:34']Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.[/quote]How can a "nation" answer the call to "come" and "inherit the kingdom prepared...from the foundation of the world"?

Maybe this is just more "obvious" Pentacostal doctrine...

PS: Eutychus, thank you for not hiding your beliefs and simply attacking Catholic teachings.

[Sojourner]

Wow, I didn't realize that my whole nation would collectively be up for judgment. Maybe I should consider moving ...