Fidei Defensor Posted September 17, 2006 Posted September 17, 2006 (edited) There are two ideas here. The first is that all truth is contained in the Bible, and that the Bible is the sole source of truth. The other is that everything in the Bible is true, but truth can come from other places than the Bible. Budge subscribes to the first idea, Catholics the second. The first idea is that everything you believe must come from the Bible, because it is the only source of truth on Earth. However, the second idea is the correct one of the two, because it affirms that the Bible is absolute truth, but God can work in other ways than the Bible, and can use other means to convey truth. Mainly, the other way is via His Church. God is not limited to the Bible. He is allowed to do as he pleases in regards to revealing truth. And don't attempt to say that this means we believe other religious texts are true. This is not what I am saying. The Bible is the only book which is absolutely true, because it is the word of God. However, some other texts may have some how stumbled upon some truth. We are allowed to recognize that. That doesn't mean follow it. Just that they too can have some truth, because it is something we have already learned as truth from God. However, to limit God's ability to teach and give us the truth to only the Bible is a logical fallacy. It limits God to a box. Or rather, to pages in a book. Edited September 17, 2006 by fidei defensor
Budge Posted September 17, 2006 Author Posted September 17, 2006 You either have a standard and a guide to who God is or you do not. Catholicism has nothing to test false spirits with, and that is one reason the Catholic church is being led after false Marian apparitions. The departure from scripture as a guide, and men looking to their own authority is reason for the error of the interfaith movement as well. I do not believe other religious texts are inerrant like Gods Word.
Fidei Defensor Posted September 17, 2006 Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1065220' date='Sep 17 2006, 04:11 PM'] I do not believe other religious texts are inerrant like Gods Word. [/quote] Neither do I, nor does the Catholic Church. However, other texts may have a tiny bit of truth in them. That does not make the texts themselves true, only that portion within them. They may have stumbled upon this truth on their own, and just happened to put it in there, or God may have led them to that truth, so that it may be a method of their eventual conversion. The point to recognizing the truth in other texts is to bring about conversion. If they believe something which is the same, or similar to what we believe, we can use that belief as a talking point to bring them to the one and only true faith.
Budge Posted September 17, 2006 Author Posted September 17, 2006 Satan works by mixing truth and lies together. So you think people can be truly converted by doing the same?
Fidei Defensor Posted September 17, 2006 Posted September 17, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Budge' post='1065231' date='Sep 17 2006, 04:17 PM'] Satan works by mixing truth and lies together. So you think people can be truly converted by doing the same? [/quote] Obviously that is true. The Koran and other religious texts are a mix of truth and lies. However, it is our job as Christians to extract the truth from the lies and lead others to do the same. We must show them the truth in their own belief which corresponds to the truth in Christ, lead them to reject the lies, and help them to come and accept the fullness of truth in the Christian faith. This is what Paul did with the pagans. He used their worship of an unknown god to extract the truth, the truth being that the unknown god was really the True God, the one and only God. But he didn't stop there, and neither should we. He proclaimed Christ, as we should too. However, it is also a matter of prudence to decide when to proclaim. There is work to be done before. You can't run into a room and tell everyone to convert or go to hell. You must help them understand the truth, then share the good news. Edited September 17, 2006 by fidei defensor
cmotherofpirl Posted September 17, 2006 Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1065144' date='Sep 17 2006, 03:11 PM'] Why Theyve told you that so youll follow them. Thats what it comes down to. They have you convinced scripture is impossible to GET. I remember thinking the same thing while I was in Catholic school. it is a total lie. As for courses of action. Those can be checked via the bible. Apostles asked Jesus if they could call down pillars of fire on thsoe who refused gospel. Jesus rebuked them. Ie dont call down pillars of fire on unbelievers and go conquer them... Apostles were told to wear a sword while out in the world preaching. Self defense is ok. Theres all sorts of answers like those in the Bible. [/quote] So you use it as your answer book? So you read that apostles wore swords while preaching so you extrapolate its ok to practice self -defense. But that directly contradicts the bible where it says to turn the other cheek. So you are choosing one text over another. In reality you are a magisterium of one, and are picking and choosing like any other protestant. and btw, you keeping harping on issues with obedience? Hebrews 13:17
Winchester Posted September 17, 2006 Posted September 17, 2006 Well, thank God blind obedience is limited to Muslims and Catholics. Thankfully, Evangelicals remain stainless. I guess I haven't gotten the revised Catechism that Budge is using.
Budge Posted September 17, 2006 Author Posted September 17, 2006 [quote]Well, thank God blind obedience is limited to Muslims and Catholics. Thankfully, Evangelicals remain stainless.[/quote] We dont believe in infallible men, now do we? And I never claimed perfection for Evangelicals. Im not trapped into excusing all the charlatans, crooks and false teachers.
Winchester Posted September 17, 2006 Posted September 17, 2006 Hey there! I don't believe in infallible men, either. I believe that a particular man is protected from teaching error under particular circumstances. I merely made an observation from your sentence. And, dear Bible thumper, I have never excused people. Again, I have the old version of the Catechism, and it doesn't have these lessons you're using to teach so accurately about the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church.
Budge Posted September 17, 2006 Author Posted September 17, 2006 So you adhere to the old version and not the new? I dont think your church leaders would be happy about you dissing the new, unless youre a Trad or something. [quote] I believe that a particular man is protected from teaching error under particular circumstances.[/quote] an infallible man, even if it only happens rarely.
Winchester Posted September 17, 2006 Posted September 17, 2006 I think you've gotten an advance copy. They're not selling your version in Catholic bookstores. As for the infallible teaching, I believe the Bible when it says that with God, all things are possible. Call me an optimist.
kamiller42 Posted September 17, 2006 Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1065231' date='Sep 17 2006, 04:17 PM'] Satan works by mixing truth and lies together. [/quote] The essence of Budge's and Eutychus' posts.
N/A Gone Posted September 18, 2006 Posted September 18, 2006 Why do fundi's, who dont even agree with themselves. Let alone agree with the majority of protestants who claim the same sola scripture simple understand, claim that it is so easy to understand and come to the proper understanding. Are you saying you and your divine great understanding is better than Thomas, Calvin or origen? All of them had a very different understanding of romans. Shouldnt the truth be sooooo easy? Even within your own precious community you can not decide a universal doctrine of sexual morals (AG and a few others wouldnt sign) cant decide what scripture says about music(some say it is sinful in service) how does communion work and what does it mean? How is that OSAS doing? and many other issues... oh, the holy spirit told you the bible is the authority it is. (instead of bible insert, Book of Mormon, Korean, playboy or any other holy books) does this appeal actually work in your world? The average trained protestant would have tried some historical criticism at least. Not some hippy experience
Winchester Posted September 18, 2006 Posted September 18, 2006 Who actually wrote the words in the Bible?
Don John of Austria Posted September 18, 2006 Posted September 18, 2006 [quote name='Winchester' post='1066197' date='Sep 18 2006, 06:24 PM'] Who actually wrote the words in the Bible? [/quote] Well it couldn't have been men Winchester, because Scripture is infallable, and Man cannot be infallable--- even when inspired by God.
Winchester Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 It's sort of like the old verbal volleyball we played on micchaelmoore's board. Sweet. Got the kid a souvenir from Dallas--a light up firetruck pin, plus a Dallas patch. Heard what he said about the truck fire.
N/A Gone Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 why doesnt budge answer all of my questions..?
Don John of Austria Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 [quote name='Winchester' post='1066291' date='Sep 18 2006, 08:18 PM'] It's sort of like the old verbal volleyball we played on micchaelmoore's board. Sweet. Got the kid a souvenir from Dallas--a light up firetruck pin, plus a Dallas patch. Heard what he said about the truck fire. [/quote] Yeah it does remind me of the old days on Michaelmoore. I am sure the kid will love them --- thanks.
Winchester Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 I reckon. Budge is on a vacation. How wonderful for her. I hope she enjoys it.
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