The Islam Call To Prayer At Mass

[Budge]

[quote]the muezzin at Mass
Posted by: Diogenes - Sep. 15, 2006 1:26 PM ET USA

To commemorate the 5th anniversary of the 9/11 tragedy, the Milwaukee archdiocesan choir joined in a performance of a 21st-century "Mass for Peace," which incorporated readings from Jonathan Swift and Rudyard Kipling.

A Mass? With readings by Swift and Kipling?

Wait; there's more. The Journal-Sentinel previewed the event that would be held in the cathedral of St. John the Evangelist:

[size=4]Perhaps the most appropriate soloist is Amjad Khleifat, who was approached by Milwaukee Archdiocesan Choir Director Jeff Honore and Kamenski to perform the second movement's "Adhaan" or "Call to Prayers," which Jenkins indicated should be recited in its native Arabic.
From the marbled ambo in the center of the cathedral Sunday, [u]Khleifat covered his ears and rehearsed, calling out to Allah in a sweeping, sitar-like voice.[/u][/size]

Perhaps that was "most appropriate." Then again, perhaps not.[/quote]


[url="http://www.cwnews.com/offtherecord/offtherecord.cfm?task=singledisplay&recnum=3806"]LINK[/url]


[quote][i]What is Adhaan (call for prayer) ?
A. When the time for salaah comes, a man stands up before the prayer and calls aloud these words [1]: ( listen realaudio)


Allaahu akbar – Allah is the Greatest (4 times)

Ash-hadu an-laa ilaaha il-lal-laah – I bear witness that there is no god except Allah (2 times)


Ash-hadu an-na Muhammadar-rasoolul-laah – I declare that Muhammad is Allah’s Messenger (2 times)


Hay-ya ‘alas-salaah – Come for salaah (2 times, turning the head to the right both times)


Hay-ya ‘alal-falaah – Come to success (2 times, turning the head to the left both times)


Allaahu akbar – Allah is the Greatest (2 times)


Laa ilaaha il-lal-laah – There is no god except Allah.

These words are called adhaan. In the adhaan of Fajr after Hay-ya ‘alal-falaah, say 2 times:


As­-salaatu khairum-minan-naum – Prayer is better than sleep.[/i][/quote]

[url="http://www.islam4schools.com/adhaan.htm"]CALL TO PRAYER FOR MUSLIMS[/url]


[quote]
Antichrist to the core:

"Ash-hadu an-laa ilaaha il-lal-laah – I bear witness that there is no god except Allah (2 times)"



Jesus is God come in the flesh, that is Christianity 10

[b]
:1 John 2:18 (KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:22 (KJV) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 (KJV) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 (KJV) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.[/b]

[Seven77]

Those Catholics at CWNews forum are happy about this?

[Counter-Reformer]

Eh so what? It's a problem here in the United States and canada where some priests think they know better than the than the great ecuminacl councils, Canon Law, or the Pope himself.

I'll chalk this one up as another disobedient priest pulling stuff.

[Anomaly]

I gotta back Budge up on this won. The CC is awfully inconsistent in how it 'disciplines' it's Bishops. Heck, look at Bishop Milingo and his current antics as well as the Bishop in LA.
If the Catholic Church leadership actually made it's clergy adhere to the Catechism in practice, it wouldn't have all these problems for the last 600 years.

[dUSt]

Budge,

Please present your debate. As this post stands now, it is simply a copy-and-paste, and will be labelled as "negative criticism of other religions" and a warning issued.

If you would like avoid breaking phorum guidelines, you must present your debate and limit your criticism of other religions to constructive criticism.

[Veritas]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1065961' date='Sep 18 2006, 11:19 AM']
Budge,

Please present your debate. As this post stands now, it is simply a copy-and-paste, and will be labelled as "negative criticism of other religions" and a warning issued.

If you would like avoid breaking phorum guidelines, you must present your debate and limit your criticism of other religions to constructive criticism.
[/quote]

THANK YOU!

[Counter-Reformer]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1065959' date='Sep 18 2006, 02:18 PM']
I gotta back Budge up on this won. The CC is awfully inconsistent in how it 'disciplines' it's Bishops. Heck, look at Bishop Milingo and his current antics as well as the Bishop in LA.
If the Catholic Church leadership actually made it's clergy adhere to the Catechism in practice, it wouldn't have all these problems for the last 600 years.
[/quote]
It depends on the bishop in charge. Mnay of these Bishops use thier office to spout radical ideals not inline with proper catholic thought. Pope Benedict XVI's reign is promising as he has begun to weed out and outright sack bishops who engage in behaviours that create scandal.

[kamiller42]

dUSt,

Budge,

Here you go again with deception. Do you realize there is more than one definition of Mass? Mass in [b]this event is not a liturgical Mass[/b]. (You don't believe in the Eucharist, so I have no idea why this news story would bother you other than maybe to try and cause division among the faithful.) [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_%28music%29"]A Mass is also a musical composition with defined parts[/url]. These parts are based on the liturgical Mass. Think of this definition of Mass as meaning a concert with defined form, not the liturgical one we celebrate on Sunday. (Although, according to Wikipedia, some of the classic ones could be used in conjunction with a liturgical Mass.)

According to your sources and what I found, this was a concert, not a Eucharistic celebration. So why Islam in the event? Just as there are Masses written by Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_%28music%29#Baroque_through_present_day"]many others[/url], this piece by Karl Jenkins is called "[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Armed_Man"]The Armed Man: A Mass for Peace[/url]". It's part of this composition of Mass, this music piece.
[quote]The text includes words from the Islamic call to prayer, the Bible (e.g. the Psalms and Revelation), the Ordinary of the Mass (e.g. Kyrie Eleison, Sanctus), texts from authors such as Rudyard Kipling and Alfred Lord Tennyson, as well as a survivor of the Hiroshima bombing[/quote]
If you have a disagreement with the theology of the Catholic Church, please bring them forward. Exceptions do not define the rule, so don't prop up exceptions as the norm. Stop trying to nit pick using isolated incidents and discuss your theological grievances.

Edited September 18, 2006 by kamiller42

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1065959' date='Sep 18 2006, 02:18 PM']
I gotta back Budge up on this won. The CC is awfully inconsistent in how it 'disciplines' it's Bishops. Heck, look at Bishop Milingo and his current antics as well as the Bishop in LA.
If the Catholic Church leadership actually made it's clergy adhere to the Catechism in practice, it wouldn't have all these problems for the last 600 years.
[/quote]
Wouldn't it be great if all the dissident bishops were consistent. They're not. Therefore, each one requires a separate plan of action.

Catholics aren't congregationalists. The laity don't discipline the bishops.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1066041' date='Sep 18 2006, 02:12 PM']
Wouldn't it be great if all the dissident bishops were consistent. They're not. Therefore, each one requires a separate plan of action.

Catholics aren't congregationalists. The laity don't discipline the bishops.[/quote]
I didn't suggest the laity discipline the bishops. I did suggest the Church leaders discipline it's clergy.
The separate plan of action is guess is to do nothing. Milingo has been 'dissident' for decades. Bishops have ignored the Church guidelines, the Catechism, moral principles, and civil laws for years which helped fan the flames of the priest abuse scandal.
Etc., etc., etc.

If the Church wants to be the High Moral Authority, then make real and serious efforts to do so. More effort is put into debating about kneeling for communion or holding hands than is put into ensuring the Bishops actually make moral choices in line with basic Christian morals like reporting child molestors that break civil laws to the civil athorities or making sure that Churches are built with a tabernacle that isn't in the janitor's closet.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1066053' date='Sep 18 2006, 04:26 PM']
I didn't suggest the laity discipline the bishops. I did suggest the Church leaders discipline it's clergy.
The separate plan of action is guess is to do nothing. Milingo has been 'dissident' for decades. Bishops have ignored the Church guidelines, the Catechism, moral principles, and civil laws for years which helped fan the flames of the priest abuse scandal.
Etc., etc., etc.

[/quote]
Bishop Milingo reconciled and then flew the coop again. The Church believes in forgiveness. In fact, the Church is in the business of forgiveness. That doesn't mean people won't sin again.

My point about the laity was that if you want the Church to do well, pray for it. Bishops need prayers as much if not more than the rest of us. It's not our place to tell the bishops what to do.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Raphael

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1065965' date='Sep 18 2006, 01:21 PM']
THANK YOU!
[/quote]

[Theoketos]

If Budge's point is that this is contrary to the spirit of true Evangelism, I would have to agree. If her point is that this typifies the Roman Catholic Teaching on such, I would have to disagree. Either way, it is a sad thing.

[homeschoolmom]

Ah, but we can't really know what Budge thinks or is trying to say. She doesn't present her argument in debate phorm.

[Didymus]

yeah, most of the post seems like it should just be in Open mic, since there didn't seem to be much of an argument or thesis laid down. All I see is an unfortunate occurrence - a premise - but nothing else.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Theoketos' post='1066093' date='Sep 18 2006, 04:28 PM']
If Budge's point is that this is [b]contrary to the spirit of true Evangelism, I would have to agree[/b]. If her point is that this typifies the Roman Catholic Teaching on such, I would have to disagree. Either way, [b]it is a sad thing[/b].
[/quote]
How and why?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1066070' date='Sep 18 2006, 02:50 PM']
Bishop Milingo reconciled and then flew the coop again. The Church believes in forgiveness. In fact, the Church is in the business of forgiveness. That doesn't mean people won't sin again.

My point about the laity was that if you want the Church to do well, pray for it. Bishops need prayers as much if not more than the rest of us. It's not our place to tell the bishops what to do.[/quote]Read up a bit more on Milingo. His marriage wasn't an aberration. He's had a long history of disobedience. God gave us a bit of intellect and we really should try to use it. There's forgiveness, and there is justice and prudent behavior. He's only been ordained with graces which he chooses to avail himself to or not. He, (or any Bishop, Pope, or priest) wasn't endowed with magical perfection. If he can't perform the task, don't have him in the position.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Anomaly

[ruso]

Budge, you are a clown.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1066121' date='Sep 18 2006, 04:58 PM']
How and why?
[/quote]

Because inviting some one into our sacred churches to balspheme is unholy. The Cathedral is for Catholic Liturgy.

Now a Concert exhibiting different chants from differents faiths I could stomach if it were not inside our Church. Listening to the link was neat, if a little frieghtening.

But using our sacred altars intended for Christ is false Ecumenism. Ecumenism is honestly examining the Truth. It is honest dialogue. It is not shared prayer.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Theoketos' post='1066319' date='Sep 18 2006, 09:05 PM']
Because inviting some one into our sacred churches to balspheme is unholy. The Cathedral is for Catholic Liturgy.

Now a Concert exhibiting different chants from differents faiths I could stomach if it were not inside our Church. Listening to the link was neat, if a little frieghtening.

But using our sacred altars intended for Christ is false Ecumenism. Ecumenism is honestly examining the Truth. It is honest dialogue. It is not shared prayer.
[/quote]
Thanks for your answer. :-)

I can't say they used the altar. The Cathedral has a large music area and seating area. Those facilities and the ambo were probably used.

I've been to church activities in the main worship space other than mass, so I know churches have been used their facilities for more than Mass.

Yes, it's in the main worship space, but the ceremony itself was not a religious one. It was a musical one.

I understand the unease. I guess the silver lining is people who would not normally hear Christian and Catholic readings had a chance to hear it. And the super bonus is it's nothing like Budge's copy/paste portrayed it to be. If it was true, that would have been really offensive.