Islam As Pagan Monotheism

[mortify]

Peace,

When I think pagan god I think zeus or odin and they're very different from the concept of God in islam. Other than denying the Trinity, and focusing on God's omnipotence, there isn't that much difference, particularly with the Old Testament (Perhaps others will disagree?).

Where we do find paganism is in some islamic practices, like circulating around the Ka'ba and venerating the black stone. These were being done way before muhammad's time. So I'd say islam is a mixture of various religious beliefs existing in the arabian peninsula and those Muhammad encountered on his travels, such as Christianity. It's really hard to label it "paganism" because of the mixture.

[Aloysius]

the basis of a pagan god is that he acts according to his personality. zeus and odin fit this category, and my contention is that allah fits this category as well.

the basis of revolutionary monotheism is that it inverts this concept and makes God's nature into reason; He does not merely act out of his personality

even the God of the Old Testament, and the God of the Talmudic Jews, is indicated (minus a few exceptions of anthropomorphisms, as I have noted, but in Christianity/Judaism they can be called anthropomorphisms, in Islam every word is directly authored by God and thus they do not generally present an argument for that) to act as the basis of existence (YHWH), to act according to reason that is not determined by his personality or temperments (I give my example in Genesis, that God saw that it was good not that He said that it was good)

allah reduces pagan gods to one, but maintains a god who rules according to his personality and temperments.

[Budge]

[quote] Islam As Pagan Monotheism, but not moon-god fundy nonsense[/quote]

The title of this thread is contradictory.

Pagan equals MOON-GOD.

Paganism encompasses nature worship and worshipping the CREATION instead of the CREATOR.

Why do you think THIS is on Islamic flags?

[img]http://www.travel-images.com/turkey.gif[/img]

Right there is the moon.

So where's the FUNDY nonsense...

that us bad Bible thumping FUNDIES refuse to get on the Allah is God interfaith bandwagon?

What is odd is on this board right here, we have Catholics joining the Karen Armstrong train of thought...and others who reject Allah as God...interesting how that suppose Catholic Unity breaks down a little bit on this one.

[Aloysius]

Read my thread, please. I put a bit of effort into explaining a very rational argument about why allah is a pagan god, just numbered one to mimic monotheism.

But I say specifically in explaining this that I will not base it solely off of the attempt to label allah the same as the old moon god. Why? well, it's right there in one of my posts on the first page: israEL itself is named after the pagan god of the caanites, EL. I label it "moon god fundy nonsense" because generally, fundy's just take all the similarities to the moon god (its name, the symbol of the moon, et cetera) and think they have proven their point.

if you had read some of my further posts, you would note that I myself gave credence to the idea that it is a continuation of the moon god, and all the other pagan arab gods, wrapped into one.

[Budge]

[quote] israEL itself is named after the pagan god of the caanites, EL.[/quote]

You are arguing semantics. El is basically a generic name for God in the semantic language.

Even I know that Allah is used in the Arabic language for God by Christians...

{this is why I always write Allah [of Islam]

[quote]
"...When the Israelites came to worship their god under the name of Yahweh...the term El as a name for 'god' survived only in the old narrative about the patriarchs and in some literary forms, such as the Psalms. In much the same way, the obsolete 'thee' and 'thou' survive in modern liturgical usage and in poetry, although the words long ago dropped out of spoken English."
- The Israelites[/quote]

[mortify]

Allah is not a moon god. As much as I may disagree with muslims, it is nonsense to think they worship the moon. Its very clear that they believe Allah created everything, including the moon.

*Maybe* the pagan arabs believed Allah was a moon god, but this is not the case with Muslims.

[Budge]

Islam still has "moon" worship to a degree...but this time

its a much smaller 'SPACE ROCK"

[img]http://www.coranix.com/101/kaaba_pierre_noire.jpg[/img]

[quote]The Black Stone (called Al-Hajarul Aswad in Arabic) is a holy relic in Islam. It is roughly 50 cm in diameter. It is found in the Kaaba, a sacred site in Islam, in the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. It is the cornerstone of one of the four corners of the religious construction. It can be recognized instantly because it is surrounded by a silver band.
[size=4]
When pilgrims circle the Kaaba as part of the ritual of the Hajj, many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone.[/size]

The Stone is actually broken into several pieces, damage which occurred when the stone was stolen in 930 C.E. Ismaili (Qarmatian) warriors sacked Mecca and carried the Black Stone away. It was returned twenty-two years later. In the process, the Black Stone was cracked. It is now held together by a silver band, which is fastened by silver nails to the Stone.[/quote]

[Aloysius]

I am only arguing symantics about where we should begin argument... which is what semantics are for. I'm not going to say I can prove my point by showing the symbols of the moon god and the similarities of the name allah with the name of the moon god and all those things which, in my experience, many fundies start out with (and finish with) thinking they have proven their point.

EDIT (AFTER BUDGE's POST) TO ADD: yes, budge, this example you highlight shows where they remain pagan-minded about gods. If that was the sum of the argument, however, I would label it "fundy moon god nonsense"... I do truly invite you to read the first page of this thread because I do want to see what your opinion is of my propositions.

mortify, allah is not directly the moon god, but he is a continuation of the moon god and all the other pagan arab gods, simply numbered into one. antrhopologically, they took the first step of a basic monotheistic revolution (bringing the gods down in number to one), but did not complete it with the truly revolutionary aspect of the monotheistic revolution... they maintained a god whose personality and temperments ruled and thus continued to treat him the way pagans treated all the gods.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Why do you think THIS is on Islamic flags?[/quote]

It is the new moon. Muslims [i]always[/i] use the new moon, as I'm sure you've noticed - never the full moon. This is because the new moon is a symbol of renewal and regeneration, something that never dies. Muslims see Muhammad as the person who revived the old faith (pure monotheism) that was still practised by the hanifs [hermits] in the desert even in pagan Arabia. That was why the new moon was chosen as the symbol for Islam.

Because pictures [i]can[/i] be symbolic, Budge. It is crude logic to suppose that they're always iconic, or even indexical.

[Budge]

I wonder how many here are going to be attending mosque soon.

I suppose you could include it with your Catholic Mass, theres plenty being opening in America.

The moon in Islam doesnt represent your fanciful statement but fulfills this Bible verse.
[size=5]
Deu 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or[size=4] moon[/size], or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;[/size]

That includes worshipping meterorites that fall from the sky.

[Winchester]

Yeah, I've seen the Muslims worshipping the moon.


No one can claim anything contrary to your opinion of what they believe. The moon being a symbol of something other than your deranged opinions? NO! It cannot be! Symbols have an inherent, unalterable meaning! When Navajos used swastika shapes in their art, it actually meant they were Nazis!

The Muslims worship Allah, not the moon. For the love of all that's holy, will you please stop with the lying?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073632' date='Sep 24 2006, 08:36 AM']
I wonder how many here are going to be attending mosque soon.

I suppose you could include it with your Catholic Mass, theres plenty being opening in America.

The moon in Islam doesnt represent your fanciful statement but fulfills this Bible verse.
[size=5]
Deu 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or[size=4] moon[/size], or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;[/size]

That includes worshipping meterorites that fall from the sky.
[/quote]
I thought that meteor is what Christians worship as the star of Bethlehem.

Or is that the pillar of fire that the egyptian jews followed?

[Budge]

[quote]
No one can claim anything contrary to your opinion of what they believe. The moon being a symbol of something other than your deranged opinions? NO! It cannot be! Symbols have an inherent, unalterable meaning! When Navajos used swastika shapes in their art, it actually meant they were Nazis![/quote]

The Swastika is actually a SUN-WORSHIP symbol and is a recurring symbol in MYSTERY BABYLON--ie FALSE RELIGIONS.

[quote]Sun Signs and the Swastika Symbol

Since prehistoric times sun worship continued in other forms and within many religi[u]ons. In ancient nature worship the swastika represented the sun itself,[/u] planetary motion, the regular procession of the seasons, harmony of the forces of nature etc. There have been innumerable variations in the symbolism of the swastika. Not surprisingly, it crops up quite often as an element in the decorative styles of many early cultures.
[/quote]

[img]http://www.ceramicstudies.me.uk/hgrafs07/sunswastikass.gif[/img]


[quote]
No one can claim anything contrary to your opinion of what they believe. The moon being a symbol of something other than your deranged opinions? NO! It cannot be! Symbols have an inherent, unalterable meaning! When Navajos used swastika shapes in their art, it actually meant they were Nazis!

The Muslims worship Allah, not the moon. For the love of all that's holy, will you please stop with the lying?[/quote]

The roots of Islam are in pagan moon worship.


It is interesting here how Catholics jump up and down to defend Islam....

[img]http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/images/muslim.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm"]ALLAH THE MOON GOD 1[/url]

[url="http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god-allah.htm"]ALLAH THE MOON GOD 2[/url]

Remnents of moon worship in the Koran...
[quote]
A. There are remnants of pagan moon god worship in the Koran when we have examples of Muslims swearing by the moon. These is no example in the Bible, of anyone ever swearing by a planet. This evidence is not decisive, but it is interesting to note.

[size=5]* "I swear by the moon,[/size] And the night when it departs, And the daybreak when it shines; Surely it (hell) is one of the gravest (misfortunes)" (Koran 74:32)
* But nay! I swear by the sunset redness, And the night and that which it drives on, And the moon when it grows full, That you shall most certainly enter one state after another. But what is the matter with them that they do not believe, And when the Qur'an is recited to them they do not make obeisance? (Koran 84:16)
* Koran translator Yusuf Ali comments on these two passages: "[size=5]Nay, verily by the Moon," Yusuf Alli comments, "The moon was worshipped as a deity in times of darkness." (Qur'an, translated by Yusuf Ali, footnote 5798, pg. 1644, explanation of why the Qur'an swears by the moon in Surah 74:32)[/size][/quote]

[url="http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-photos-moon-worship-archealolgy.htm"]ISLAM AND THE MOON GOD--ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE[/url]

[img]http://democracyfrontline.org/blog/wp-content/files/Sin2.jpg[/img]

Edited September 24, 2006 by Budge

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Budge, your 'archaeological evidence' doesn't exactly come from a credible source, does it? The first sentence alone is enough to set alarm bells ringing in the head of anyone who has studied Middle Eastern history.

[quote]Muhammad grew up worshipping many pagan gods in the Kabah including the moon, either called Hubal and Allah. After his conversion to monotheism, through the influence of Christians, Muhammad stopped worshiping the moon.[/quote]

No, he did not 'grow up worshipping many pagan gods in the Kabah'. He was a monotheist from childhood. He was taken to live in a Bedouin encampment when he was a baby, as was the custom among members of the Quraysh tribe, so that he could avoid the unhealthy air of the crowded city. He was placed under the care of a nomadic woman named Amina, who was a monotheist. and raised with her beliefs.

[quote]The moon in Islam doesnt represent your fanciful statement but fulfills this Bible verse.[/quote]

My 'fanciful statement' stems from my time in Saudi Arabia, where I learnt to speak Arabic and studied Middle Eastern history (Islamic and pre-Islamic) intensively. When Muhammad established the five daily prayer times for Muslims, he was emphatic that people should avoid praying when the sun was at its zenith, when it was rising and when it was setting, in case uneducated bystanders thought the Muslims were actually worshipping celestial bodies. This is why the imams of some mosques still hang up a little sign at these times that says, "[i]Makroor[/i] time - do not pray." [i]Makroor[/i] means 'inadvisable' or 'not recommended'.

[quote]It is interesting here how Catholics jump up and down to defend Islam....[/quote]

We're not jumping up and down to defend Islam. We're jumping up and down to defend logic. Our method when talking to Muslims is: "Please tell us what you believe, then we'll discuss and debate things." Your method seems to be: "I'll tell you what you believe, and then I'll tell you why it's wrong." Going to that fundamentalist Christian site for impartial information on Islam is like going to a bin Laden-run travel agency for unbiased advice on America's attractions. There is thinking, Budge, and there is rearranging your prejudices.

With all due respect, I don't think embracing fundamentalist Christianity can have changed you much from when you were a UU. Universalism and fundamentalism are like communism and fascism - ostensibly diametrically opposed but in reality very similar. Neither of them have any appreciation for subtlety and nuance. The UUs try to do away with subtlety altogether by pretending that differences between religions do not exist. Fundamentalists try to push the differences into stark, clear-cut patterns - a bit like the black and white squares on a chessboard - and refuse to admit that there could possibly be any other colours in the world.

If you genuinely want to understand Islam, go to the mosque and [b]listen to[/b] a knowledgeable Muslim. Note that I say 'listen to', and not 'talk at'.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1071921' date='Sep 22 2006, 07:08 PM']
the basis of a pagan god is that he acts according to his personality. zeus and odin fit this category, and my contention is that allah fits this category as well.

the basis of revolutionary monotheism is that it inverts this concept and makes God's nature into reason; He does not merely act out of his personality

even the God of the Old Testament, and the God of the Talmudic Jews, is indicated (minus a few exceptions of anthropomorphisms, as I have noted, but in Christianity/Judaism they can be called anthropomorphisms, in Islam every word is directly authored by God and thus they do not generally present an argument for that) to act as the basis of existence (YHWH), to act according to reason that is not determined by his personality or temperments (I give my example in Genesis, that God saw that it was good not that He said that it was good)

allah reduces pagan gods to one, but maintains a god who rules according to his personality and temperments.
[/quote]


No the basis of a pagan god is that man can manipulate that god through actions or sacrifices. Roman, Greek, Wiccan and Canaanite gods were pagan gods. Allah is not.

There are many obvious flaws with the Islam religion. But it cannot be considered pagan.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1075460' date='Sep 26 2006, 09:42 AM']
No the basis of a pagan god is that man can manipulate that god through actions or sacrifices. Roman, Greek, Wiccan and Canaanite gods were pagan gods. Allah is not.

There are many obvious flaws with the Islam religion. But it cannot be considered pagan.
[/quote]
Ummmm...no. The gods cannot be manipulated, but "energy" can. The gods are called upon, yes, but they are not "manipulated." Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here.

[Jaime]

actually yes

Myan gods, Roman gods, Canaanite gods etc can be manipulated to do your will if you follow prescribed acts. Take the Canaanite practice for example. If you read Leviticus, the rules written there are responses to the various acts done by Canaanites to gain blessing or incur curses.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='mortify' post='1071908' date='Sep 22 2006, 07:02 PM']
Peace,

When I think pagan god I think zeus or odin and they're very different from the concept of God in islam. Other than denying the Trinity, and focusing on God's omnipotence, there isn't that much difference, particularly with the Old Testament (Perhaps others will disagree?).

Where we do find paganism is in some islamic practices, like circulating around the Ka'ba and venerating the black stone. These were being done way before muhammad's time. So I'd say islam is a mixture of various religious beliefs existing in the arabian peninsula and those Muhammad encountered on his travels, such as Christianity. It's really hard to label it "paganism" because of the mixture.
[/quote]
Actually, it's very easy to label it "paganism" as a result of that mixture. Any blending of pagan beliefs and practices even with the truth results in a form of Paganism. It's like putting poison into a milkshake. Even if you just put a tiny bit of poison, the milkshake is now no longer able to be consumed without danger to the consumer.

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1075467' date='Sep 26 2006, 09:59 AM']
actually yes

Myan gods, Roman gods, Canaanite gods etc can be manipulated to do your will if you follow prescribed acts. Take the Canaanite practice for example. If you read Leviticus, the rules written there are responses to the various acts done by Canaanites to gain blessing or incur curses.
[/quote]
This is not manipulation my friend. This would be akin to someone saying "If you will do this, and this, I will give you $5." When I think of 'manipulation' in regards to pagan religions, I think of using spells and the gods to gain a specific end. Technically speaking, it is not manipulation to do a certain act in order to gain the approval of a god or gods, or even our God. After all, God(YHWH) requires Faith on Christ from us. And in doing so, we are granted righteousness through Christ. Is that an act of manipulation? I rather think it isn't.



[quote name='Budge' post='1073716' date='Sep 24 2006, 12:56 PM']
The Swastika is actually a SUN-WORSHIP symbol and is a recurring symbol in MYSTERY BABYLON--ie FALSE RELIGIONS.
[img]http://www.ceramicstudies.me.uk/hgrafs07/sunswastikass.gif[/img]

[/quote]

Well..you're partiallly right. The swastika sometimes represented the sun, in some cultures. Some cultures that used the swastika used it to represent life, fire, eternity, all, or simply a good luck charm.

How do I keep putting everything into the same post?

How does it keep doing that? Everything keeps appearing in the same post? I replied three times to three different people and it all showed up in the same post? [img]http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/209192.gif[/img]

[Jaime]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1075469' date='Sep 26 2006, 10:03 AM']

This is not manipulation my friend. This would be akin to someone saying "If you will do this, and this, I will give you $5." When I think of 'manipulation' in regards to pagan religions, I think of using spells and the gods to gain a specific end. Technically speaking, it is not manipulation to do a certain act in order to gain the approval of a god or gods, or even our God. After all, God(YHWH) requires Faith on Christ from us. And in doing so, we are granted righteousness through Christ. Is that an act of manipulation? I rather think it isn't.
[/quote]


It is manipulation. and its at the very core of paganism.

Our salvation is an undeserved gift to us. So are the graces given by God. That is the critical difference between Christianity (and Judiasm and Islam) and the pagan religions.

We can ask through prayer and hope our prayers are received. Pagan religions believe that they can control the outcome (i.e. manipulate the gods) by prescribed acts. If they do them properly, blessings will come forth. The difference is that we believe that we are in servitude of God. They believe the gods serve them.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1075484' date='Sep 26 2006, 10:15 AM']
It is manipulation. and its at the very core of paganism.

Our salvation is an undeserved gift to us. So are the graces given by God. That is the critical difference between Christianity (and Judiasm and Islam) and the pagan religions.

We can ask through prayer and hope our prayers are received. Pagan religions believe that they can control the outcome (i.e. manipulate the gods) by prescribed acts. If they do them properly, blessings will come forth. The difference is that we believe that we are in servitude of God. They believe the gods serve them.
[/quote]

*Some pagans believe the gods serve them.* Don't assume that all pagans act in that manner my friend. And I don't really know of any pagan who believes that they control the outcome, but rather they hope that their god(s) will manipulate the outcome, or that their spell will manipulate the outcome.

I'm speaking from experience here. As an ex-pagan, I know a little about this type of thing.