Uh-oh!

[Budge]

This is IRONIC! - Debates With Prots Forbidden?

www.newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm

[quote] By a decree of Alexander IV (1254-1261) inserted in "Sextus Decretalium", Lib. V, c. ii, and still in force, [size=4]all laymen are forbidden, under threat of excommunication, to dispute publicly or privately with heretics on the Catholic Faith.[/size] The text reads: "Inhibemus quoque, ne cuiquam laicæ personæ liceat publice vel privatim de fide catholicâ disputare. Qui vero contra fecerit, excommunicationis laqueo innodetur." [size=4](We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication.)[/size]
[/quote]


What should all those Catholic apologists do?

Uh oh, you are all now excommunicated. Pick up your check, youre done, and go find good Christian churches...

[Winchester]

If it is indeed valid, it's merely a discipline, not a doctrine, and apparently not enforced currently.


Try again.

Hydra syndrome.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073655' date='Sep 24 2006, 09:04 AM']
This is IRONIC! - Debates With Prots Forbidden?

[quote]By a decree of Alexander IV (1254-1261) inserted in "Sextus Decretalium", Lib. V, c. ii, and still in force, all laymen are forbidden, under threat of excommunication, to dispute publicly or privately with heretics on the Catholic Faith. The text reads: "Inhibemus quoque, ne cuiquam laicæ personæ liceat publice vel privatim de fide catholicâ disputare. Qui vero contra fecerit, excommunicationis laqueo innodetur." (We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication.)[/quote]


What should all those Catholic apologists do?

Uh oh, you are all now excommunicated. Pick up your check, youre done, and go find good Christian churches...


[/quote]

Budge, Budge, Budge......

Unfortunately you treat that snippet like you treat Sacred Scripture.

What else is said in that New Advent article.......

[quote]To discuss as doubting the truth of the faith, is a sin; to discuss for the purpose of refuting error, is praiseworthy. At the same time the character of the audience must be considered. If they are well instructed and firm in their belief, there is no danger; if they are simple-minded then, where they are solicited by unbelievers to abandon their faith, a public defence is needful, provided it can be undertaken by competent parties.[/quote]

[quote]This law, like all penal laws, must be very narrowly construed. The terms Catholic Faith and dispute have a technical signification. The former term refers to questions purely theological; the latter to disputations more or less formal, and engrossing the attention of the public. There are numerous questions, somewhat connected with theology, which many laymen who have received no scientific theological training can treat more intelligently than a priest.[/quote]

So, when you look at anything, you must look at it in context and not simply with a narrow mind. So, defending the faith is completely acceptable, but disputing it as a matter of the Catholic doubting the faith is what is not permissable.

It smells of elderberries dealing with someone who actually has a degree in Theology, huh?

Good luck on the next freaky-deaky misinterpretation.

[Budge]

[quote]To discuss as doubting the truth of the faith, is a sin; to discuss for the purpose of refuting error, is praiseworthy. At the same time the character of the audience must be considered. If they are well instructed and firm in their belief, there is no danger; if they are simple-minded then, where they are solicited by unbelievers to abandon their faith, a public defence is needful, provided it can be undertaken by competent parties.[/quote]

Ah 20 disclaimers.



Why cant they ever say something direct ever?

I think theology degrees only serve to make people more confused.

Most pastors coming out of even Prot seminaries that focus more on theology are getting further and further away from Gods Word.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073707' date='Sep 24 2006, 11:39 AM']
Ah 20 disclaimers.



Why cant they ever say something direct ever?

I think theology degrees only serve to make people more confused.

Most pastors coming out of even Prot seminaries that focus more on theology are getting further and further away from Gods Word.
[/quote]

Actually, theology degrees make things clearer.

And your answer is obvious and was expected. Why Ohhhhhhh Why can't they, blah blah blah..... The answer is that they do make things clearer, but the understanding of the answer comes from education. Hence the degree in theology.

Good luck, you need it. You are failing.

When you are ready to hear the Truth of the Church again, we will be here. God Bless.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073707' date='Sep 24 2006, 01:39 PM']
Most pastors coming out of even Prot seminaries that focus more on theology are getting further and further away from Gods Word.
[/quote]
No one who studies good theology gets far from God's word. It's like the difference between a coworker and a husband. The coworker sees a woman well-dressed, proper, and cordial; he would not recognize her as the husband does: unclothed, loving, trusting, and intimate.

Catholic theology delves into God's word so as to make the theologian intimate with God's ways. Fundamentalism takes God's word at face value, not wanting to look any deeper. That's why fundamentalists find it so hard to recognize Catholic Scriptural theology as Christian. It's simply too intimate for them.

Edited September 24, 2006 by Raphael

[Budge]

[quote]
Catholic theology delves into God's word so as to make the theologian intimate with God's ways. Fundamentalism takes God's word at face value, not wanting to look any deeper. That's why fundamentalists find it so hard to recognize Catholic Scriptural theology as Christian. It's simply too intimate for them.[/quote]

Most theologists today have become nominal agnostics. Theology is corrupt with modernism. They follow human wisdom instead of God's wisdom and endless vain philosophies.

Theologists are basically the SCRIBES of today.

Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, [size=5]scribes[/size] and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over [them] are not aware [of them].

Theologians do not become more intimate with God, they become more intimate with themselves and a god of their own making.

Edited September 24, 2006 by Budge

[homeschoolmom]

On what authority can you equate "theologists" with scribes and then quote a verse to "prove" your point??? You can't just make stuff up.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073751' date='Sep 24 2006, 02:26 PM']
Most theologists today have become nominal agnostics. Theology is corrupt with modernism. They follow human wisdom instead of God's wisdom and endless vain philosophies.

Theologists are basically the SCRIBES of today.

Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, [size=5]scribes[/size] and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over [them] are not aware [of them].

Theologians do not become more intimate with God, they become more intimate with themselves and a god of their own making.
[/quote]

I said those who study good theology. It's an unfortunate fact that there are false theologians...just one branch of the false prophets we were warned about since the beginning.

How do you know the good theologians? They are the ones who agree with Christ's Church, which He promised would not fall.

[Budge]

[quote]

I said those who study good theology. It's an unfortunate fact that there are false theologians...just one branch of the false prophets we were warned about since the beginning.

How do you know the good theologians? They are the ones who agree with Christ's Church, which He promised would not fall.[/quote]

Good theology in the Catholic Church?

Like Scott Hahn telling us the Holy Spirit is feminine?

Not one adheres to Gods Word, they invent their own theories THEOLOGY, about God, to circumvent Gods Word.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073770' date='Sep 24 2006, 02:38 PM']
Good theology in the Catholic Church?

Like Scott Hahn telling us the Holy Spirit is feminine?

Not one adheres to Gods Word, they invent their own theories THEOLOGY, about God, to circumvent Gods Word.
[/quote]
Dr. Hahn never said that the Holy Spirit was feminine. You completely misunderstand his point.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073770' date='Sep 24 2006, 02:38 PM']
Good theology in the Catholic Church?

Like Scott Hahn telling us the Holy Spirit is feminine?

Not one adheres to Gods Word, they invent their own theories THEOLOGY, about God, to circumvent Gods Word.
[/quote]
What part of this didn't you understand?:
This will be enforced:
Personal Attacks
A post or comment that has nothing to do with the topic, but is specifically meant to upset or criticize another person or group of people. This includes, but is not limited to, calling people "heretics" (used in a derogatory manner), "democrooks", etc.

If you wish is debate something frame it within the above terms or you will be warned or suspended. Most people here are members of the Catholic Church, not "Catholic Church". The head of our Church is Benedict 16th, not Benny.
If you cannot be respectful, play elsewhere.

[Budge]

[quote]
Dr. Hahn never said that the Holy Spirit was feminine. You completely misunderstand his point.[/quote]

[url="http://www.newoxfordreview.org/note.jsp?did=0105-notes-hahn"]DID THESE CATHOLICS MISUNDERSTAND TOO?[/url]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073785' date='Sep 24 2006, 02:52 PM']
[url="http://www.newoxfordreview.org/note.jsp?did=0105-notes-hahn"]DID THESE CATHOLICS MISUNDERSTAND TOO?[/url]
[/quote]
That article sites the Remnant, which is a radical traditionalist newspaper. They hate orthodoxy as much as you do. Of course they would want to jump all over his theology and treat him like a heretic. I have met Dr. Hahn and his whole family. They are perfectly orthodox Catholics.

[Franimus]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073655' date='Sep 24 2006, 11:04 AM']
This is IRONIC! - Debates With Prots Forbidden?

www.newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm


What should all those Catholic apologists do?

Uh oh, you are all now excommunicated. Pick up your check, youre done, and go find good Christian churches...


[/quote]

So by your interpretation, you're forcing us to disobey our laws because you are posting here to debate with us, thereby making us go against what we believe is right, thus you are telling us that we should not listen to authority and we should do things even if we think it's wrong just because SOMEBODY (anybody) thinks it's right.

So, we can do whatever we want to do as long as somebody thinks we're right?
Don't lie and try to say you're not telling us this. You're debating with us about this, and by debating with us you are forcing us to go against what that piece of text says (in your interpretation).

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073707' date='Sep 24 2006, 01:39 PM']
Ah 20 disclaimers.



Why cant they ever say something direct ever?

I think theology degrees only serve to make people more confused.

Most pastors coming out of even Prot seminaries that focus more on theology are getting further and further away from Gods Word.
[/quote]


Because the Catholic church does not subscribe to your brand of sound-bite theology

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073655' date='Sep 24 2006, 11:04 AM']
This is IRONIC! - Debates With Prots Forbidden?

www.newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm


What should all those Catholic apologists do?

Uh oh, you are all now excommunicated. Pick up your check, youre done, and go find good Christian churches...


[/quote]


Your post is of no surprise to refrain from addressing the context and full truth of the statement that you quote. Maybe you got the quote from a non-Catholic source, and if that is so, it shows that your research skills are quite poor to study the Catholic teachings from someone who hates it. There is a term you might want to learn and give some thought to... "bias". There are millions of Catholics that say your sources are wrong about the Catholic Church... people who have been Catholic many years and have a strong understanding of the Church. Stop being a fool by listening to people who do not understand the Church about the Church.

There is a difference between debate and apologetics. Apologetics simply tries to explain the what and the why of the Catholic faith, we don't focus on what you have wrong about God. What you think about the Catholic teachings is similar to believing that two plus two is one. Christian charity demands that we try to explain to you what the Church really teaches.

In fact I have had to come to the defence of Muslims lately due to the Quran being quoted with lies. Not because I believe the Quran is a good book, but because people claimed things where there that simply where not.

The Germans fell into the pit of hate of Jews during WWII... today we have people like you falling into the hate of Catholics and Muslims over false statements... just as the Germans did in WWII. Are you wise enough to see your folly? Or will you allow yourself to be blinded by ignorance and lies?


The context of the quote.....

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm[/url]
[quote]This law, like all penal laws, must be very narrowly construed. The terms Catholic Faith and dispute have a technical signification. The former term refers to questions purely theological; the latter to disputations more or less formal, and engrossing the attention of the public. There are numerous questions, somewhat connected with theology, which many laymen who have received no scientific theological training can treat more intelligently than a priest. In modern life, it frequently happens that an O'Connell or a Montalembert must stand forward as a defender of Catholic interests upon occasions when a theologian would be out of place. But when there is a question of dogmatic or moral theology, every intelligent layman will concede the propriety of leaving the exposition and defence of it to the clergy.

But the clergy are not free to engage in public disputes on religion without due authorization. In the Collectanea S. Cong. de Prop. Fide" (p. 102, n. 294) we find the following decree, issued 8 March, 1625: "The Sacred Congregation has ordered that public discussions shall not be held with heretics, because for the most part, either owing to their loquacity or audacity or to the applause of the audience, error prevails and the truth is crushed. But should it happen that such a discussion is unavoidable, notice must first be given to the S. Congregation, which, after weighing the circumstances of time and persons, will prescribe in detail what is to be done. The Sacred Congregation enforced this decree with such vigour, that the custom of holding public disputes with heretics wellnigh fell into desuetude. [See the decree of 1631 regarding the missionaries in Constantinople; also the decrees of 1645 and 1662, the latter forbidding the General of the Capuchins to authorize such disputes (Collectanea, 1674, n. 302).]

That this legislation is still in force appears from the letter addressed to the bishops of Italy by Cardinal Rampolla in the name of the Cong. for Ecclesiastical Affairs (27 Jan., 1902) in which it is declared that discussions with Socialists are subject to the decrees of the Holy See regarding public disputes with heretics; and, in accordance with the decree of Propaganda, 7 Feb., 1645, such public disputations are not to be permitted unless there is hope of producing greater good and unless the conditions prescribed by theologians are fulfilled. The Holy See, it is added, considering that these discussions often produce no result at all or even result in harm, has frequently forbidden them and ordered ecclesiastical superiors to prevent them; where this cannot be done, care must be taken that the discussions are not held without the authorization of the Apostolic See; and that only those who are well qualified to secure the triumph of Christian truth shall take part therein. It is evident, then, that no Catholic priest is ever permitted to become the aggressor or to issue a challenge to such a debate. If he receives from the other party to the controversy a public challenge under circumstances which make a non-acceptance appear morally impossible, he must refer the case to his canonical superiors and be guided by their counsel. We thus reconcile two apparently contradictory utterances of the Apostles: for according to St. Peter (1 Peter 3:15) you should be "ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you", while St. Paul admonishes Timothy (2 Timothy 2:14), "Contend not in words, for it is to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers".[/quote]



Be a barking dog or swine... we have done our part, your blood is on your hands.


Something to ask yourself... Would Jesus want you to base your opinion of the Catholic Church on lies by others or what the Catholic Church really teaches?

-ironmonk

[SJP]

Cam42 said:

"Budge, Budge, Budge......

Unfortunately you treat that snippet like you treat Sacred Scripture.

What else is said in that New Advent article.......


QUOTE
To discuss as doubting the truth of the faith, is a sin; to discuss for the purpose of refuting error, is praiseworthy. At the same time the character of the audience must be considered. If they are well instructed and firm in their belief, there is no danger; if they are simple-minded then, where they are solicited by unbelievers to abandon their faith, a public defence is needful, provided it can be undertaken by competent parties."



Budge, if you insist on cut and paste, at least have enough sense to read the entire passage

It just makes it very difficult to take any of your charges seriously when you continually destroy your own credibility.

[Budge]

[quote]
Budge, if you insist on cut and paste, at least have enough sense to read the entire passage rolleyes.gif[/quote]

MORE WEASLE words....one thing about Catholic documents, nothing is ever direct, but lost in a morass of Vaticanese, vagueness and fog.

Always 20 disclaimers on every finite statement.

Always a dozen 'outs' per paper.

Satan is the author of confusion.
[mod]Pic too big - dUST[/mod]

[Winchester]

By calling people satan I reckon you mean to upset us.

Oooh I'm so angry! Grrrrr!!!!