Saying The Added Part Of The Our Father

[jasJis]

It's funny when you are enlightend Bruce, it's others that are being nit-picky. :D

The ARTIST of the Big Picture paints with Broad Strokes and Fine Detail.

Bruce, check out the link to my Octavio Ocampo signature. It's amazing to see in real life. Far away is the face of Christ crucified. Get closer, and you lose it and see Calgary (Calvary). Don't step back, come even closer and see again the face of Christ and know what makes forms His image a little better. -_-

Edited January 11, 2004 by jasJis

[Anna]

Interesting and thanks. Good thread you linked, learned a few things, and I appreciate your pointing me to it.

You're kindly welcome.

I just find it worth commenting on... that Pentecostals rarely obsess over these little "jot's and tittle's" type of issues. Honest.

Hmmm. And I always thought Pentecostals were very "Biblical"

Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

The "Jot" is the Hebrew word "Yodh" which is the 10th letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It is also the smallest letter. It's European or English equivalent is the letter "Y" as in the English term Yahweh or in Hebrew YHVH since there were no vowel's used in the ancient script.

The word "jot" itself is an English transliteration of "iota" which is the 9th letter of the Greek alphabet. "Iota," in turn, is the nearest Greek equivalent for the Hebrew yodh.

The "tittle" is the small decorative spur or point on the upper edge of the yodh. If you can imagine a tiny letter with a slightly visible decorative mark.

Tittle is used by Greek grammarians of the accents and diacritical points. It means the little lines or projections by which the Hebrew letters differ from each other. One example would be the difference between the letter L and I. The difference is only one small mark. We use phrases like "the dotting of the i, and the crossing of the t," and "every iota."

For us, it is more a Big Picture thing.

Yes, the big picture often eliminates the fine details. I see...

I honestly have had more fun reading internal squabbles from ALL denominations, including yours, over such matters as the GRIP implementations.

And I honestly have had more fun reading your misquotes, grammatical blunders, and misusage of words....what's the GRIP?

Defining and defending every nuance of worship, prayer, or FORM isn't really something we engage in [now I'm talking with a Pentecostal hat on here, since I'm presently wearing many in my life].

I guess that's just another bad habit we Catholics inherited from our Jewish ancestors.

Dare I say it? A heretic?

Grin.

Why do I feel so uncomfortable when you grin and say "heretic"? Why do I not understand all the grinning you do, while denying certain Truths? I find it kinda, scarey, Bruce S. And I mean that from a spiritual point of few...and I'm just being honest and serious here, not meaning a put down (like, say, in other posts of my own!) :sadder:

Pax Christi. <><

[Ellenita]

Anna, thanks for posting that link. As ever, Likos' wise post in the original discussion about the doxology is so clear. I always feel learn so much from him!

[Aloysius]

it's not part of scripture though. shouldn't you be careful what you believe to be the inspired word of God and what you believe to be something started by men, and Catholic men at that :ph34r: ?

:P

[cmotherofpirl]

:)

THats true Aloysius.

[BLAZEr]

And I honestly have had more fun reading your misquotes, grammatical blunders, and misusage of words....what's the GRIP?

lol, as in get a GRIP? lol, that's one of my favorite phrases . . .

It's GIRM Bruce, as in General Instruction for the Roman Missal . . .

Anna new that . . . and I like her style . . . sneaky . . .

[Lil Red]

Its apart of our Mass after Father says prayer after Our Father. People here for some reason lift there hands up when they say it.

:loco:

yeah, my church does too. I figure if I'm not gonna hold hands during the Our Father, then I shouldn't lift up my hands either. I dunno. :huh:

[Lil Red]

Thanks Anna for the link! I appreciate it!

[PedroX]

Sojourner,

We do say the ending, just slightly differently than the Protestant version. I often forget that Father is going to say his prayers inbetween and find myself saying the first few words of the ending. Boy do I feel sheepish!

Lil Red Devil,

I do say the ending in my personal prayers. Between being a Protestant for so long, and being an addictions counselor (we always closed meetings with the Lord's Prayer) it just comes naturally to me. I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with it, and while praying the rosary, it seems like a nice "amen" part of the prayer. Hope that helps!

peace...

[Katholikos]

For those who really want to know the truth about the Protestant ending of the Lord's Prayer and didn't click on the link Anna provided where the Q was answered:

Catholics say the "Lord's Prayer" (called the "Our Father") as the Lord Himself taught it to His Apostles.

The words "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever" are from a marginal gloss in the manuscript used to translate the King James Version of the Bible. They were inserted into the text of Mt 6:13 in error by a copyist, and Protestants have been saying the Lord's Prayer incorrectly ever since 1611 when the KJV was published. (The KJV omits this gloss in Luke 11:4.)

The phrase is from the Liturgy of the Mass as it was celebrated in Greek in the first century, taken from from 1 Chronicles 29:11 in the Old Testament. You will find the words in the first century Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles), added as a doxology (hymn of praise) at different intervals in the Mass, including after the Our Father.

The Novus Ordo (Mass as revised after Vatican II) restored this doxology following the Our Father. First the congregation says the Our Father, then the priest says: "Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy, keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ." The congregation then says: "For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours forever, amen."

But these are not Christ's words and should not be attached to the Lord's Prayer.

Many Protestants have accused Catholics of "cutting Christ's words out of the Lord Prayer." That's amusing, considering the truth of the matter.

The RSV does not add these words to Mt 6:13. Newer Protestant translations also omit them.

This is only one of many errors in the KJV.

JMJ Likos

[Anna]

I thought about posting that, Likos! Thanks for going ahead and doing it for us.

BLAZEr: I lol'd.

Pax Christi. <><

[Lil Red]

thanks likos!

[Bruce S]

Bruce, check out the link to my Octavio Ocampo signature. It's amazing to see in real life. Far away is the face of Christ crucified. Get closer, and you lose it and see Calgary (Calvary). Don't step back, come even closer and see again the face of Christ and know what makes forms His image a little better.

I prefer my cross empty and Christ risen.

The story ends with an empty cross.

We see what we want to see, we reject or accept that which we want to.

We do have free will.

I see Christianity, you see A Roman Catholic Monolith.

I'm a freedom fighter, human monarchies bother me.

Hey, just my take, just my take....