Concerning Instruments At Mass...

[franciscanheart]

I know this discussion was going on in another thread and I'm not sure there was ever a real conclusion. It is not 'against the rules' to have guitars or pianos at Mass. They are certainly not preferred by many of the more traditional Catholics but they have not been 'outlawed'. Sometimes when you read through the Questions and Answers section you have to be very aware of stated facts and opinions with persuasive arguments to back them up. Cam doesn't like the guitars and he's made that very clear. However, they are allowed.

I'm still not sure what I think about it all but I know that they're allowed.

[puellapaschalis]

I have reservations about guitars at Mass, although that's a personal preference rather than anything like a liturgical opinion. I'm somewhat more easy-going when it comes to liturgical celebrations other than a Mass - there'll be guitarred Taize music at the Adoration Vigil. Played decently - there are too many non-decent church musicians out there - I think the guitar can be very beautiful and inspiring.

Pianos I don't know, although I think it would depend a lot on the space. I once came across a priest (a fairly well-known one, at that) who was on the verge of declaring pianos [i]anathema[/i] in liturgical music for the reason that there wasn't the repertoire for it. That reason struck me as (without wishing to overly disagree with who seems to be a rather respected member of the clergy) non-sensical, quite frankly.

Somewhere way back there was a Pope who said that only Greggors and Palestrina should be sung at Mass. Whilst it's not Faith and Morals (and thus not an infalliable statement), I'll go with that

Love and prayers,

PP

[franciscanheart]

I have a problem with the music/choir area in many churches anyway. What happened to lofts? Since when do musicians belong in the font or middle? Since when did they get 'front row seats'? They belong upstairs, in the back.

Our church was constructed with music in mind (as all churches should be). We have fabulous acoustics considering the amount of open space. We have a gorgeous (renowned) organ (one of seven in the world) but we also have a piano. (Let's not forget the handbells and harpsichord.)

Sometimes the organ is too overpowering. It's not perfect for every piece and pieces that work well with the harpsichord and piano are not by any means unworthy. There are plenty of pieces (Handel and Bach) that are played on the harpsichord and piano that sound fabulous and are absolutely NOT contemporary.

I don't deny that there is some line that can be drawn between appropriate service music and non-appropriate service music. I don't think it's fair though to say that all pianos in every case should be taken out. I don't agree that all drums in every case should be taken out (though I am referring to tympany drums when I speak of drums to keep). If you have any doubt in your mind about tympany drums just come visit my parish during Easter. I guarantee you won't be disappointed.

I guess my biggest thing so far is that there is no defined list of instruments that can be used for Mass. To pretend that there is some place that it is said that only instrument ST and instrument WX can be used for the Mass would be ridiculous. Do some prefer instruments ST and WX over EF? Sure! But that doesn't mean EF isn't allowed.

And one more thing... if we're going back to old ways of doing things, how far back do we go? At what point do we no longer 'keep with tradition'? What time period embodies tradition, exactly?

If we have tympanies and french horns and trumpets and trombones playing with the organ at Easter and it is respectful and actually proclaims the resurrection of Christ much like the angels probably proclaim it in Heaven, are we doing something wrong? Should those instruments be outlawed because they were not used in the old days? And again, which old days are we talking about exactly?

It just seems so relative right now.

[puellapaschalis]

I agree with many of your thoughts that you present here. The "Organ Only!!!11!!eleven" crowd seem to press their point as though St. Peter himself played one.

Something else that we perhaps should keep in mind is the "image" a particular instrument (or constellation of instruments) might have in the local culture when considering its possible use [i]in liturgy[/i] (I think something like Catholic rock or whatever is a different issue). For this reason the "thinking" side of me as well as the "classicly-trained musician" side of me will cringe if a drum kit's in use during the Sanctus. Tympani are something else, though, you're right. Electric guitars? With my experience of WYD last Summer? Hm.

My general trend of thought, although I'm not a theologian and don't claim to be one, in any area, is that the bounds of what is dignified and suitable for the Mass are much [b]broader[/b] than the B Minor Mass or whatever Mozart/Beethoven/Some Other Classical Composer wrote (much of that stuff is clearly unsuitable for liturgy anyway, and was only written to show off the composer's skills). "Dignified" does not necessarily mean "in common use during the Tridentine era."

I have a preference for plainchain and early polyphony because, well, I'm an almost-monastic and I like the way it sounds. But not everyone's like me.

To have a list of approved instruments strikes me as a bit meglomaniac and, if I can trust that people won't read this wrong, out of the remit of any "central authority". It's perhaps something a local Ordinary could specify, an archbishopfric at a stretch, but once you get to the level of the US national conference, for example (the Dutch equivalent is the same as the archbishopfric, so it depends on the size involved) it'd simply get quite unwieldly. For global events like WYD I'd go for plainchant because everyone knows it (or should...) anyway, and it's almost "independent" of many local culture differences.

Contemporary music as a concept should be written off per se. Indeed, with the Mass in the vernacular so widespread, it's important to have [i]good[/i] translations set [i]well[/i] to [i]good[/i] music that is [i]appropriately[/i] used in the liturgy. It seems we're still working on that...which is fine, so long as we actually get there.

Ahhhhh, liturgists and terrorists....

Love and prayers,

PP

[franciscanheart]

I'd also like to throw out there that I actually prefer chanted Mass parts but do enjoy my hymns. I miss them during the week but sometimes I find myself cringing at some of the Mass parts that are played during the Mass. (So to get that straight: I miss hymns during the week but when I go back on Sunday I cringe at anything that is set to music that isn't a hymn.)

Part of that problem though is that when our Parochial Vicar says the Mass (he uses a lot of chant) and people don't sing the Agnus Dei, I am reminded of how unlearned our church is. All but one or two Masses (we have a total of 8 Masses on the weekends) use Mass parts with instruments 'supporting' them. Only two Masses speak or chant almost everything and I'm pretty sure only the last Mass chants the Agnus Dei and that's IF the same priest is saying the Mass! At the point that the music takes away from the beauty and sacredness of the Mass, it needs to go.

The only other objection I have to certain instruments is the easy abuse of them in the worship service. It is something that is specific to my parish (to a single Mass) and not really worth discussing...

[VeniteAdoremus]

My dad is a (for Dutch standards) conservative Catholic, and the father of a church musician. The highlight of my year used to be the second night mass on Christmas Eve, since we always sing the most difficult (and often long...) pieces, with full orchestra...

...so long and difficult and pretty that it can take your viewpoint off what's actually happening at the altar, which is why my father greatly disliked it. I learned to understand him, and a couple of years later, to agree with him.

The music should lead to the Altar, and if it doesn't, it's Bad. If you have a church full of musicians, by all means, perform Puccinni's Messa di Gloria, because they'll be in raptures over the beauty of the work and the beauty of God's creation. "Normal" people will be mostly occupied with "does the Gloria really have to take 20 minutes?". If you have a youth service, it's okay to use "young" music - because that is what speaks to them. Again, the "general sunday audience" might react differently and be distracted from the Eucharist.

I think my general idea is: if it's done prudently and with regards to the people whom the music is supposed to lead into worship, a lot is acceptable.

[franciscanheart]

The other thing I think is worth discussing (nowadays anyway) is where instruments fit in regards to physical location. I am a strong believer that choirs should be in the back and in a loft. It all works really well when churches are constructed that way.

There is one church I have visited on numerous occassions that is set up like this: the altar is obviously the center of the cross-shape building. The tabernacle is at the top of the cross and the sides and bottom are seating areas. If you can imagine there are two huge sections on each side of the altar and two single sections in front of it. Now.. in between the bottom of the cross and the side of the cross (only on one side) are the musicians.

So basically the musicians have their own designated area in the middle of the seated people on the ground with front row seats. They are very noticeable since they stand (depending on the instrument) to play while the people sit to sing.

The whole thing makes me very uncomfortable. Not to mention the cantor goes to the podium to sing the psalm and it's very distracting. The cantor should be behind the people singing the psalm. And preferably without a mic. But maybe I'm just being picky now...

[puellapaschalis]

Hughey - you should come and visit me. You'd like my church, I think

Love and prayers,

PP

[Groo the Wanderer]

My personal preference:

In the Mass, I would like to see the instruments restricted to organ, piano, and acoustic guitar. Maybe violin and cello as well...

Outside Mass, anything goes, as long as it makes a 'joyful noise unto the Lord'.

No overhead projectors though....

[AlterDominicus]

I am a traditionalist in all ways, except music. I am getting to really like the hymns, chants, I mean its AMAZING! And I never was really expose to that until I went to Alton this past August, hearing the sisters with/without music was just a big IMPACT on me. I couldnt believe it. I was even distracted after Holy Communion because there was a song that came from a 6 part series called "Revelations" with a astrophysists (<whatever) and a religious phenomena sister, Sister Josepha Montifore of the Sisters of Mercy.

So now I love both, but I make songs and I have a guitar and I love the hand motions, jumping up and down, clapping together, I love the slow songs, I love the fast songs, I love it all. Thats where I stand.

[franciscanheart]

I've not seen a problem with trumpets, trombones, french horns and tympany drums during easter. We have the string quartet for Christmas Eve. Everything else is the harpsichord, organ, and piano. (When you start to consider different instruments, a lot of them really don't seem too bad!)

[quote name='AlterDominicus' post='1074903' date='Sep 25 2006, 05:52 PM']
I am a traditionalist in all ways, except music. I am getting to really like the hymns, chants, I mean its AMAZING! And I never was really expose to that until I went to Alton this past August, hearing the sisters with/without music was just a big IMPACT on me. I couldnt believe it. I was even distracted after Holy Communion because there was a song that came from a 6 part series called "Revelations" with a astrophysists (<whatever) and a religious phenomena sister, Sister Josepha Montifore of the Sisters of Mercy.

So now I love both, but I make songs and I have a guitar and I love [b]the hand motions, jumping up and down, clapping together,[/b] I love the slow songs, I love the fast songs, I love it all. Thats where I stand.
[/quote]
During Mass?

[Jabberwocky]

I like this thread. All things regarding music up to this point has seemed very rigid. As an organist at my parish, this topic appeals to me greatly. Some of the songs that I am assigned to play are written more for the piano than for the organ (say, with running notes rather than a solid pedal note) so I always try to play a piece on the instrument it was arranged for.

My parish is a three-winged cross-shaped church. And yes, the organ, singer, and choir are off to the left of the altar in the front of one of the wings. I think that they used to be behind the altar and tabernacle, and behind a large concrete wall with gold-rimmed teardrop shapes cut into it. Our choir is a small, amateur choir, so having it behind a wall or up in a loft would make it hard for the sound to carry throughout the church. I suppose I don't have a problem with the choir in the front, but when they stand to sing the mass when everyone else is kneeling, that kind of gets on my nerves.

As for me, the humble organist, I simply play what I am told to play...and I try to do it as respectfully as I can. Also, a major thing for me is making sure that I leave a bit of a pause when people are prone to breathe, to help the people sing better. That's my main objective.

[Jabberwocky]

Does anybody else here teach songs before Mass? For whatever reason, the choir director at my church thinks that it is essential for us to teach the congregation a song that we have never played previously. That usually entails listening to the melody, then singing the melody, then trying to sing it with the accompaniment, and then singing it over and over and over...all before Mass.

Me, I think it's a little annoying to have a cantor telling you how to sing a song while you are tying to collect your thoughts and pray before Mass. When the schedule says that I should teach a song, usually the cantor and I decide to tell the people we are learning a new song, ask them to join in, and just sing it through.

Last Sunday I was supposed to teach a new song and didn't even bother (it scheduled to be only a cantor solo anyway). Later I heard that at the 8 o'clock Mass the choir had them practicing it past the time Mass was supposed to start.

What thinks you of this practice?

[AlterDominicus]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1074905' date='Sep 25 2006, 05:54 PM']During Mass?[/quote]

Yes during mass.

[onlygrace08]

This past weekend, our parish had a new building dedicated. To celebrate the occasion (I am supposing) we had a rather large choir that was well rehersed along with the orgain, piano, [b]drums[/b] and some other instruments, including the trumpet. I found it all to be rather destracting really, especially the drums and trumpet. They were so much louder than the choir. Also, the choir is in the front of the new church which I think is distracting as well. I realized this weekend how beautiful the songs are that use our voices as the main instruments! Those were the prettiest songs, the ones where is was just the choir with a small part played by the organ. ok... that my $.02

God Bless

Anna

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Jabberwocky' post='1074980' date='Sep 25 2006, 07:02 PM']
Does anybody else here teach songs before Mass? For whatever reason, the choir director at my church thinks that it is essential for us to teach the congregation a song that we have never played previously. [b]That usually entails listening to the melody, then singing the melody, then trying to sing it with the accompaniment, and then singing it over and over and over...all before Mass. [/b]

Me, I think it's a little annoying to have a cantor telling you how to sing a song while you are tying to collect your thoughts and pray before Mass. When the schedule says that I should teach a song, usually the cantor and I decide to tell the people we are learning a new song, ask them to join in, and just sing it through.

Last Sunday I was supposed to teach a new song and didn't even bother (it scheduled to be only a cantor solo anyway). Later I heard that at the 8 o'clock Mass the choir had them practicing it past the time Mass was supposed to start.

What thinks you of this practice?
[/quote]
you amuse me. i really don't think something like that is necessary. we certainly don't do that and our congregation is just fine. most of the people who are inclined to learn or want to learn the new music will generally figure it out by the end of the piece. we used to practice putting our hymnals away quietly after mass was over in gradeschool but that's the closest i've come to experiencing something like that. i'd find that annoying.

[quote name='AlterDominicus' post='1075116' date='Sep 25 2006, 09:32 PM']
Yes during mass.
[/quote]
You mean... hand motions, jumping up and down, and clapping together... during Mass? (I'm trying to make sure I understand.)

[Cam42]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1074524' date='Sep 25 2006, 01:02 AM']
I know this discussion was going on in another thread and I'm not sure there was ever a real conclusion. It is not 'against the rules' to have guitars or pianos at Mass. They are certainly not preferred by many of the more traditional Catholics but they have not been 'outlawed'. Sometimes when you read through the Questions and Answers section you have to be very aware of stated facts and opinions with persuasive arguments to back them up. Cam doesn't like the guitars and he's made that very clear. However, they are allowed.

I'm still not sure what I think about it all but I know that they're allowed.
[/quote]

Guitars can be debated, but the piano has been expressly forbidden for use in the Mass.
[quote name='Tra Le Sollecitudini #19']The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.[/quote]

So, that takes care of the piano and several other instruments, which are not appropriate.

Also the case can be made that the guitar is not acceptable based upon this:
[quote name='Tra Le Sollecitudini #20']It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the place-provided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.[/quote]

Now, what is the most prominent instrument in a band. It certainly isn't the triangle, or the flute (well, Jethro Tull excepted), but it is the guitar. Now, if it is strictly forbidden to have bands play, then it would hold that those instruments which comprise a/the band would also be strictly forbidden.

This document that I am quoting is not some archaic document, but rather one from the 20th century. [url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/Index/2/SubIndex/17/DocumentIndex/360"]Tra Le Sollecitudini[/url] is the document.

Here are the other defining documents:

Musicae Sacrae Disciplina
Musicam Sacram
De Musica Sacra
Mediator Dei

Why are we not bound to understand these documents properly and apply them to the more contemporary documents? We are very willing to make sure that all other Catechetical material and all other Liturgical material is adhered to for orthodoxy's sake, why not these?

[franciscanheart]

I'll be completely honest and say that I've never seen that the piano was forbidden to be used during Mass. It seems so odd to me!

[cappie]

Music in antiquity was always an improvisatory affair. The music theory of the time was radically different from Gregorian Chant (that system originated around the 8th-9th centuries): melodies were made of groupings of short melodic figures and strung together like stringing a necklace. There was no written music until the first lineless neumes appeared. Written organ music appeared first in the 14th century.

The ancient church had a prohibition of instrumental music, which remains in force in the Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholic churches today. The organ was probably first used during processions (with the Emperor). When it began to be used at liturgy, it was used before, after and perhaps at times such as the Elevation. The organ's role in the performance of organum and early polyphony may have been to provide drones or the chant melody in slow note values, however, there is nothing in the manuscripts that call for any line to be performed instrumentally.

The organ wasn't used to accompany congregational singing, partly because by the time the organ was common congregational singing had died in the Western church; the monks did all the singing. As the organ became an integral part of the liturgy, it took on a role of alternation (beginning with the first recorded keyboard music in 1325) with the choir: the schola would sing one verse of a hymn, or mass movement and the organ would play a short piece (frequently improvised) that took the place of the alternate verses. This became one of the main liturgical use of the organ in Catholic circles, in all countries, until Vatican II. The improvisation that accompanied the Low Mass was a post-Tridentine development. Catholic choirs generally sang unaccompanyied until the Baroque era, and then organ accompanyiment was sporadic, particularly when the a cappella tradition developed in Palestrina was the model in many places (which meant no accompaniment)..

The organ came to be used in Protestant circles only in Lutheran and Anglican traditions. Calvinist (Reformed) traditions forbade instrumental music until 1795. Solo organ music was written on various hymn melodies almost as the hymns were written and used as introductions to the hymns themselves as well as pieces in their own right. One theory is the chorales in Bach's collection the _Orgelbuchlein_, may have taken the place of congregational singing in the ducal chapel he played at the time of their composition (from Robert Clark's introduction to his _Orgelbuchlein_ edition). We're not sure when the organ became primary accompanyiment for congregational singing, but it was probably the 18th century (the chorales may have been sung unaccompanied in Bach's day). Organs accompanied choirs (continuo style, much like reading a lead sheet today, except from the bottom up) from the beginning of the Reformation (which wasn't to far from the beginning of the Baroque--a hundred years), although the a cappella tradition was still important even in Germany (they even did Palestrina in Lutheran churches!).

The pattern we know of where the organ provides the support for congregational singing probably comes from no earlier than the 17th century, and then only in German and English liturgical Protestant traditions. Accompanying Catholic congregations from the organ wasn't common until the 20th century, when the congregations started singing again.

NB The quote about the piano, unless I am mistaken, was taken from the Instruction of Pope St Pius X this is no longer in force

Edited September 26, 2006 by cappie

[goldenchild17]

Maybe it's not considered infallible, but...

[quote]Tra Le Sollecitudini - VI. Organ and instruments
15. Although the music proper to the Church is purely vocal music, music with the accompaniment of the organ is also permitted. In some special cases, within due limits and with proper safeguards, other instruments may be allowed, but never without the special permission of the Ordinary, according to prescriptions of the Caeremoniale Episcoporum.

16. As the singing should always have the principal place, the organ or other instruments should merely sustain and never oppress it.

17. It is not permitted to have the chant preceded by long preludes or to interrupt it with intermezzo pieces.

18. The sound of the organ as an accompaniment to the chant in preludes, interludes, and the like must be not only governed by the special nature of the instrument, but must participate in all the qualities proper to sacred music as above enumerated.

19. The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.

20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.

21. In processions outside the church the Ordinary may give permission for a band, provided no profane pieces be executed. It would be desirable in such cases that the band confine itself to accompanying some spiritual canticle sung in Latin or in the vernacular by the singers and the pious associations which take part in the procession.[/quote]

Edited September 26, 2006 by goldenchild17