Luther

[curtins]

I watched the movie "Luther" Today and we're learning about the reformation in Social Studies.

It seems to me that Luther's original intentions were good but people in his movement took things out of hand and he got caught up in it and went radical with some stuff.

What do you guys think?

[Era Might]

There's no doubt the Church was in need of reform, and his calls for reform were necessary. But, like you said, they took it too far, while the real reform took place at Trent after afterwards.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I have a theory that Luther's theories rose out of scrupulosity (which we know historically that he had). Suffering from over-scrupulosity myself, it makes me feel sorry for him. If only he had trusted in the anchor of the Church, the pope.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='curtins' post='1077254' date='Sep 27 2006, 09:33 PM']
I watched the movie "Luther" Today and we're learning about the reformation in Social Studies.

It seems to me that Luther's original intentions were good but people in his movement took things out of hand and he got caught up in it and went radical with some stuff.

What do you guys think?
[/quote]
What do I think? I am thinking "WHAT KIND OF SCHOOL TEACHES REFORMATION IN SOCIAL STUDIES?" ;-) Seriously, must be private school or university. Am I right?

Luther's grievance was with a Dominican friar named John Tetzel. He was raising money to rebuild St. Peter's Cathedral. His tactics were "beyond the bounds of proprietary and canon law." Pope Leo addressed Luther's concern, and in 1518 clarified the Catholic practice on indulgences. He reminded the faithful you could not buy your way to Heaven. Here's a couple of sources on indulgences if you are interested. [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp"]Source 1[/url]. [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp"]Source 2[/url].

Since you watched the movie, I recommend you read [url="http://www.decentfilms.com/sections/articles/luther.html"]Steven D. Greydanus' take[/url] on it. (Yes, I had to lookup what "hagiographical" meant. :-) )

If you can find "[url="http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Power-Glory-Catholic-Church/dp/0761516042/sr=8-1/qid=1159417176/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-9387642-5415843?ie=UTF8&s=books"]Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church[/url]" in a library or book store, I suggest you read the pages H.W. Crocker III wrote on Luther. He was one strange cat.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1077534' date='Sep 28 2006, 12:20 AM']What do I think? I am thinking "WHAT KIND OF SCHOOL TEACHES REFORMATION IN SOCIAL STUDIES?" ;-) Seriously, must be private school or university. Am I right[/quote]
Nah, the first time I ever heard of Martin Luther was in public school freshman year History. I remember thinking it was Martin Luther King. I was actually surprised when the teacher started talking about the corruption of Popes. I asked how the heck could a Pope sin, isn't he supposed to be a holy guy? LOL

Ah, I miss the ignorance of youth.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I have heard the movie Luther has some big inaccuracies. You might wana do some research on the web.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1077534' date='Sep 28 2006, 12:20 AM']
What do I think? I am thinking "WHAT KIND OF SCHOOL TEACHES REFORMATION IN SOCIAL STUDIES?" ;-) Seriously, must be private school or university. Am I right?[/quote]
You're kidding, right? Like Era, we covered the Reformation and Counter-reformation in public high school-- 11th grade, western civ. How could you have a class called "Western Civ." and not talk about Martin Luther?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1077735' date='Sep 28 2006, 09:19 AM']
You're kidding, right? Like Era, we covered the Reformation and Counter-reformation in public high school-- 11th grade, western civ. How could you have a class called "Western Civ." and not talk about Martin Luther?
[/quote]
I agree. The Reformation is a basic historical fact that spans several centuries. It must be addressed in any Western Civ class.

That doesn't mean that the teacher has to take sides, though, if that's what the poster meant.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='curtins' post='1077254' date='Sep 27 2006, 09:33 PM']
I watched the movie "Luther" Today and we're learning about the reformation in Social Studies.

It seems to me that Luther's original intentions were good but people in his movement took things out of hand and he got caught up in it and went radical with some stuff.

What do you guys think?
[/quote]

I always thought so - and on top of that I always had the understanding that Luther was pretty eccentric in some of his beliefs and opinions
I have been meaning to pick up a copy of his writings at our local Catholic book seller

I think many Protestants today would be shocked to learn that Luther (as well as Zwingli and Calvin) accepted and taught most Catholic Marian dogmas

[homeschoolmom]

as well as a belief in the communion of saints and the Eucharist...


and nothing about the rapture.

[Budge]

and after all that Proud Rome, still kept INDULGENCES.

Which still TODAY are based on how much money you have.

To VISIT places of pilgramage, a huge way that indulgences are earned, still takes being able to afford the travel, plane tickets and more.

To do good works, you have to have resources to share.

The homeless guy in the gutter with no family or friends to pray him out of Purgatory, really gets the short end of the stick in Catholicism.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1077541' date='Sep 28 2006, 12:23 AM']


Ah, I miss the ignorance of youth.
[/quote]


Is the ignorance of young adulthood that radically different for you?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Budge' post='1077995' date='Sep 28 2006, 01:06 PM']
and after all that Proud Rome, still kept INDULGENCES.

Which still TODAY are based on how much money you have.

To VISIT places of pilgramage, a huge way that indulgences are earned, still takes being able to afford the travel, plane tickets and more.

To do good works, you have to have resources to share.

The homeless guy in the gutter with no family or friends to pray him out of Purgatory, really gets the short end of the stick in Catholicism.
[/quote]
Could you please site a source on any of this?

[thessalonian]

Her source is quite clearly ignorance. For she does not know that a common daily prayer says "we pray for the poor souls in purgatory". Many other prayers and the Mass include intentions for ALL those in purgatory as well. Budge however will continue to wallow in her ignorance and shoot from the hip accusations that don't hold water because it suits her agenda. That is to bear false witness against the Catholic Church. Bearing false witness means nothing to her if it is against someone or something she doesnt agree with. The commandment is only for her friends she seems to think.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1077995' date='Sep 28 2006, 01:06 PM']
and after all that Proud Rome, still kept INDULGENCES.[/quote]
Why not? It's a solid Biblically based, infallible doctrine.

[quote]Which still TODAY are based on how much money you have.[/quote]
Do you know what an indulgence is?

Also...
[quote]By decree of Pope Pius V in 1567, following the Council of Trent, it is forbidden to attach the receipt of an indulgence to any financial act, including the giving of alms.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#The_Indulgence"]Source[/url]
[/quote]

[quote name='Budge' post='1077995' date='Sep 28 2006, 01:06 PM']To VISIT places of pilgramage, a huge way that indulgences are earned, still takes being able to afford the travel, plane tickets and more.

To do good works, you have to have resources to share.[/quote]
[quote]Indulgences occur when the Church, acting by virtue of its authority, applies existing merit from the Church’s treasury to an individual. The individual gains the indulgence by participating in certain activities, most often the recitation of prayers.[/quote]
How much in resources does it demand to pray?
[quote]The homeless guy in the gutter with no family or friends to pray him out of Purgatory, really gets the short end of the stick in Catholicism.[/quote]
In your church, you only pray for people you know by name? You should look into joining a church much more charitable. Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA) at your nearest Catholic Church is a good place to start.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Actually, the Pope has granted at least one, maybe more plenary indulgences in the last year that merely require you to go to confession and pray.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1077995' date='Sep 28 2006, 02:06 PM']
and after all that Proud Rome, still kept INDULGENCES.

Which still TODAY are based on how much money you have.

To VISIT places of pilgramage, a huge way that indulgences are earned, still takes being able to afford the travel, plane tickets and more.

To do good works, you have to have resources to share.

The homeless guy in the gutter with no family or friends to pray him out of Purgatory, really gets the short end of the stick in Catholicism.
[/quote]

bull.
That homeless guy can go to a catholic shelter and eat and be clothed, or a catholic hospital and get free medical care, or a catholic church to ask for prayers.
AND
It costs no money at all to pray with the dying, visit the sick, comfort the lonely neighbor, pray at the local murder mill, or help at your local food bank.

Good Works!

To feed the hungry;
To give drink to the thirsty;
To clothe the naked;
To harbour the harbourless;
To visit the sick;
To ransom the captive;
To bury the dead.
To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.

[Aloysius]

most indulgences are a prayer + confession + communion

the stations of the cross + confession + communion = indulgence

certain prayers over the period of a month, with the usual conditions (i.e. confession and communion) have plenary indulgences attached to them.

Budge has no idea what she's talking about here.

[cmotherofpirl]

WHAT AN INDULGENCE IS NOT
To facilitate explanation, it may be well to state what an indulgence is not. It is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power. It is not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin; it supposes that the sin has already been forgiven. It is not an exemption from any law or duty, and much less from the obligation consequent on certain kinds of sin, e.g., restitution; on the contrary, it means a more complete payment of the debt which the sinner owes to God. It does not confer immunity from temptation or remove the possibility of subsequent lapses into sin. Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. The absurdity of such notions must be obvious to any one who forms a correct idea of what the Catholic Church really teaches on this subject.

WHAT AN INDULGENCE IS
An indulgence is the extra-sacramental remission of the temporal punishment due, in God's justice, to sin that has been forgiven, which remission is granted by the Church in the exercise of the power of the keys, through the application of the superabundant merits of Christ and of the saints, and for some just and reasonable motive.

NewAdvent

[quote name='curtins' post='1077254' date='Sep 27 2006, 10:33 PM']
I watched the movie "Luther" Today and we're learning about the reformation in Social Studies.

It seems to me that Luther's original intentions were good but people in his movement took things out of hand and he got caught up in it and went radical with some stuff.

What do you guys think?
[/quote]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm[/url]

[url="http://catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=548"]http://catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=548[/url]