Baptism Is Not A "work" For Salvation

[phatcatholic]

jasJis........good answer!

[Anna]

Interesting, Bruce.

Earlier you said that you didn't WANT to go up there, but kinda felt that you had to. (I'm paraphrasing)

Now you say you weren't at all pressured.

How does your second baptism square with Scripture? "One baptism"?

1: Can a person, born Catholic, baptised, who never again goes to a Catholic Church service, receives no more Sacraments, yet leads a totally good life, filled with works, and tries to be in synch with God, outside the Catholic Church system.

Still be a Catholic. And be just as saved as one who submits totally TO the system?

Ok, despite your obvious errors in the question above, I'll just make it easy on you and say, "Yes, there is a scenario whereby a baptized person can be Catholic, even though he hasn't received any more of the Sacraments."

We have such a person who posts here regularly.

Though, when he discovered his Catholic roots, he was extremely happy, as Christ had been tugging on his heartstrings all along. (That's the grace of the Sacrament of Baptism in action!)

If one is baptized Catholic, but through ignorance or isolation has no means of learning more about the Church's teachings and living them, but tries his best to live righteously, then he is still a Catholic.

If, however, he's had the opportunity to be educated and grow in the Faith, but rejected it anyway, he's a fallen-away brother, at best. The former, I would imagine, would be saved, and the latter, not saved, though I am not God, and leave all judgement to Him.

Pax Christi. <><

[PedroX]

Just for the sake of clarity:

Presbyterians, Lutherans and Anglicans (and maybe other protestants) all baptize infants by sprinkling. So, Truth, it is not an exclusively Catholic way to do things. in fact, in those denominations it is actually called a sacrement as well.

Quakers don't baptize at all (or have any sacrements, inclduding the Eucharist).

Just thought we should be clear that there are similarities here between some Protestants and Catholics.

peace...

[phatcatholic]

good point........even tho the emphasis of the original article is on sacraments as "works" for salvation, since we have directed our attention (or rather, Mr. Truth directed our attention) towards immersion, this is worth mentioning.

thanks,

phatcatholic

[marielapin]

Just for the sake of clarity:

Presbyterians, Lutherans and Anglicans (and maybe other protestants) all baptize infants by sprinkling. So, Truth, it is not an exclusively Catholic way to do things. in fact, in those denominations it is actually called a sacrement as well.

Quakers don't baptize at all (or have any sacrements, inclduding the Eucharist).

Just thought we should be clear that there are similarities here between some Protestants and Catholics.

peace...

....and Methodists baptize by sprinkling. I was sprinkled.

[phatcatholic]

pham,

i found this info, and i though it would be helpful:

Catholics don't believe men can do any good "by their natural powers," nor do we deny sola gratia in the slightest. Simply cooperating with the grace is not "human generation"; it is "God generation." The Council of Trent is very clear on this:

Canons on Justification

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

CHAPTER V - . . . the beginning of the said justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God through Jesus Christ . . . without any merits existing on their parts . . . yet is he not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself into justice in His sight . . .

CHAPTER VIII - . . . none of those things which precede justification -- whether faith or works -- merit the grace itself of justification. For if it be a grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

from 1 Cor. 3:9 and John Calvin's Distorted Understanding of the Council of Trent's Doctrine of Grace

sorry to dig this one back up, but i thought it was important to share.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

Edited January 25, 2004 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

for more on how baptism is NOT a work (if anyone cares ), consult the following articles:

--We Give You the Gift of Faith

--Isn't Baptism Salvation by Works?

--Are Sacraments Narrow?

--What is Salvation?

--If Baptims is God's Grace and Not Works, Why Not Baptize Everyone?

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[Circle_Master]

Catholics don't believe men can do any good "by their natural powers," nor do we deny sola gratia in the slightest.

How can this be true if total depravity is denied? total depravity merely states we cannot do any good on our own - including accept Christ since that would be the greatest of the good things.

[Truth]

protestants and non-catholics,

i am interested in your response to the following article:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Isn't baptism a good work, and since Catholics claim that one normatively needs baptism for salvation that Catholics teach salvation by works?

A: There are several issues here that ought to be touched on. First, baptism is a normative necessity--not an absolute necessity--for salvation. An absolute necessity is one which admits of no exceptions. Baptism is not that kind of necessity, for God can and does save people who do not know that they should be baptized but would be if they knew it and people who have no opportunity for baptism. God does not hold against a person what they are unable to obtain or what they innocently don't know they need to obtain.

Second, the Catholic Church is very explicit about the fact one does not have to do good works to enter a state of salvation (or, for that matter, to stay in a state of salvation--all one has do to is avoid mortal sin to stay in a state of salvation). The Council of Trent forcefully declared: "[N]othing which precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For 'if it is by faith, it is no more by works. Otherwise,' as the Apostle says, 'grace is no more grace'" (Trent, Decree on Justification 8, citing Romans 11:6).

The objection that baptism is somehow a good work which earns salvation is simply ridiculous. To illustrate how absurd the idea is that simply allowing oneself to get wet "earns" eternal life, I use an illustration based on my own experience:

Back when Renee, my wife, died, I was a starving philosophy grad student in Arkansas. I had no money to pay for the treatment she received (which, I discovered after her death, ran into the tens of thousands of dollars for just a week of chemo treatment). She died because she had a very aggressive case of colon cancer which had started and spread widely before she began to manifest any symptoms.

Now let us suppose that during those dark days, a physician came to us and said, "Renee, there are a lot of malignant tumors, and they will kill you if we don't do something about them. I have found a treatment which will take them all away. It is a very, very costly treatment, and I know you don't have the ability to pay, so I will pay the fees for you out of my own pocket. All you have to do is let us lower you into a tank of medicinal fluid and all of those tumors will melt away, and you will live."

Would we say that Renee had earned her healing merely by allowing herself to be bathed in healing waters? She hadn't paid the doctor one red cent. In fact, he paid all the fees out of his own pocket! Renee merely submitted to the treatment. The whole idea that she had earned her healing would be absurd.

How much more absurd is it to say that baptism earns salvation when Jesus, the Great Physician, comes to us and says, "Friend, you have multiple sins clinging to your soul, and they will cause you to be lost if we do not do something about them. I have a treatment which will take them all away. It is a very, very costly treatment, and I know that you do not have the ability to pay. So I--Jesus--will pay the entire price myself. All you have to do is allow yourself to be lowered into a tank of water and all those sins will melt away, and you will live forever."

Simply getting wet does not in any way pay for or earn eternal life. Eternal life is a gift--a gift which Christ has chosen to bestow on us through baptism. Allowing ourselves to be baptized is a passive act; one does not baptize oneself, after all, symbolizing that eternal life is something given to you from outside, not something you reach out and take. It is simply the way we submit to Christ and receive his gift. Baptism earns nothing, and the idea it does is patently absurd. The very structure of baptism is set up to heighten the sense of humility and submission to God and his gift. Only a person with a big, BIG doctrinal ax to grind could possibly twist it into some kind of self-righteous attempt to "earn" salvation by the force of our works.

from the Internet Question Box

-----------------------------------

i post this article b/c i have seen non-catholics post many times in this board that catholics really believe in salvation by works, as witnessed by our sacraments.

does this shed light on the matter? let me know....

pax christi,

phatcatholic

Salvation is by faith. Repente and be Baptized give you the benifits of the Holy Spirit. You can be save and not Baptize, but why wouldn't you get Baptized nowing that you will receive the fruit of the spirit.

[Truth]

pham,

i found this info, and i though it would be helpful:

sorry to dig this one back up, but i thought it was important to share.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

Grace by faith in Jesus, and Justified by Christ. who care what the pope or and one else say.

[Truth]

Interesting, Bruce.

Earlier you said that you didn't WANT to go up there, but kinda felt that you had to. (I'm paraphrasing)

Now you say you weren't at all pressured.

How does your second baptism square with Scripture? "One baptism"?

Ok, despite your obvious errors in the question above, I'll just make it easy on you and say, "Yes, there is a scenario whereby a baptized person can be Catholic, even though he hasn't received any more of the Sacraments."

We have such a person who posts here regularly.

Though, when he discovered his Catholic roots, he was extremely happy, as Christ had been tugging on his heartstrings all along. (That's the grace of the Sacrament of Baptism in action!)

If one is baptized Catholic, but through ignorance or isolation has no means of learning more about the Church's teachings and living them, but tries his best to live righteously, then he is still a Catholic.

If, however, he's had the opportunity to be educated and grow in the Faith, but rejected it anyway, he's a fallen-away brother, at best. The former, I would imagine, would be saved, and the latter, not saved, though I am not God, and leave all judgement to Him.

Pax Christi. <><

"One baptism" ref to the one body of Christ not that you can only be baptized once.

Usage: One God, One Christ and One Holy Spirit, One Faith in Christ, One body of Christ. So, if you were baptized in another faith other than Christ, it have nothing to do with Christ. If you baptism didn't meet the terms of Christ baptism, you are not baptized.

[phatcatholic]

Salvation is by faith. Repente and be Baptized give you the benifits of the Holy Spirit. You can be save and not Baptize, but why wouldn't you get Baptized nowing that you will receive the fruit of the spirit.

Grace by faith in Jesus, and Justified by Christ. who care what the pope or and one else say.

"One baptism" ref to the one body of Christ not that you can only be baptized once.

Usage: One God, One Christ and One Holy Spirit, One Faith in Christ, One body of Christ. So, if you were baptized in another faith other than Christ, it have nothing to do with Christ. If you baptism didn't meet the terms of Christ baptism, you are not baptized.

Larry,

shew! it is terribly difficult to be charitable w/ u!! i don't even know where to start......

i shall think, pray, and then write more later.

Good Luck and God Bless You in your search for Truth,

phatcatholic