Ekilharas Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 jasJis: I'm sorry, guess I wasn't very clear with what I meant to say. When I mentioned 'dance' at Life Teen, I did not mean to imply 'liturgical dance', what I witnessed is what I consider 'a dance of the spirit. It is what I see as the Holy Spirit alive and moving in those present who are so very much attuned to the love and energy of the Eucharistic Celebration. Blessings, Nell
vianney Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 (edited) Once again we come to an important question.. Do you honestly think that people who use liturgical dance in a graceful and tasteful manner at mass once a year are trying to disrespect God or give praise to him? And you do you honestly think that Jesus would care if he saw ppl dancing because of him due to their happiness because he is God! I think ppl need to stop being so condeming and more accepting of other peoples ways of worship. Hey I dont partake in liturgical dance either but I know a lot of devout catholics who are active in dace and love to do this ONCE A YEAR as a part of mass. I was at WYD and i specifically remeber seeing liturgical dance at the papal mass as a part of the liturgy. Secondly they have liturgical dance at NCYC. Good Friday: I have studied the GIRM very well in a class i took at seminary and it indeed says nothing about liturgical dance being wrong. My bishop supports liturgical dance if it is done so tastefully and sparringly...I consider myself Charasmatic and Orthodox but in no way do I see this as something that is "devilish" and I dont think ppl who do it stick their noses up at the church and to be honest I dont think Jesus would have a problem with ppl dancing in his church. servant of servants Vianney Edited July 28, 2003 by vianney
Good Friday Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 There is no record of dancing at the wedding at Cana. But there certainly was not dancing at the Last Supper, which was the first Mass. That's neither here nor there. Jesus has a problem with what the Church has a problem with, and since the Church has said (through the Congregation for Divine Worship, whose quote I have posted here) that liturgical dance is not to be done, then Jesus does not want it done. Ask yourself: What is more important to Jesus, obedience to the Church or dancing?
jasJis Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 Good Friday, Get a free tape from Catholicity.com from Father Larry Richards called the "Mass Explained". The Mass is both a 'Celebration and a Sacrifice'. If the emotional tone at the Last Supper is to be the model for all Mass Liturgies, we would be in constant Lent. The culture of the Catholic Church Liturgies follows the cycle of human life, from birth, to ordinary time, to repentance, to death, to re-bith in eternal life. Even a LifeTeen mass is subdued during Lent. Solemn songs, no Alleluia, no clapping. At other times, I've got 5 words for ya... "The Joy of the Lord!"
vianney Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 And like I said the GIRM does not say anything about liturgical dance being wrong. http://www.christusrex.org/www1/mcitl/girm.html I dont think you are stating the question fairly because i think that liturgical dance is not wrong in accordance with the GIRM, and what I have seen with my bishop and at WYD in FRONT OF THE POPE HIMSELF. Im not saying that liturgical dance should be at every mass. But I am saying on special occasions with the Bishops ok there should be nothing wrong with it as long as it is done sparringly and gracefully. Like I said your question about being obedient to the church or dancing is not a fair one. And if some ppl happen to connect with God on a intimate level by dancing as a form of their worship who are we to condem them and i still stand by my statement that I picture Jesus smiling down at us as we dance and praisehis name because he is lord. I dont see him frowning and being upset with us.
cmotherofpirl Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 Gopod Friday posted the norms for the US. Liturgical dancing is wrong in the continental US simply because it is not part of our culture and the Church says no. When the Pope visits another country the host Church sets up the program, not the Vatican. If the Pope visits a country where dance is permitted ( Polynesia, orAfrica for example) you will see liturgical dance as part of their sacred tradition. If you have seen liturgical dance in the US outside the parameters set down by the Church, you are seeing disobedience and abuse. THere is nothing wrong with a party and dancing after Mass is over. THe Lords day is a day of celebration not gloom, it is Easter not Good Friday. Vianney it has nothing to do with taste and everything to do with obedience. If your Bishop and seminary are not capable of obeying simple Church rules I suggest we put them on the prayer list.
cmotherofpirl Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 If the emotional tone at the Last Supper is to be the model for all Mass Liturgies, we would be in constant Lent. The culture of the Catholic Church Liturgies follows the cycle of human life, from birth, to ordinary time, to repentance, to death, to re-bith in eternal life. Even a LifeTeen mass is subdued during Lent. Solemn songs, no Alleluia, no clapping. At other times, I've got 5 words for ya... "The Joy of the Lord!" Not so, Jas. The Last Supper was a seder, a time of remembering , singing and stories. It is a gathering or friends and family. It was certainly not Lent.
vianney Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 WYD was in Canada when I went, I would consider that in the west. And I believe I am being obedient according to the GIRM. Thank you for the prayers though I will also pray for you.
cmotherofpirl Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 And like I said the GIRM does not say anything about liturgical dance being wrong. http://www.christusrex.org/www1/mcitl/girm.html I dont think you are stating the question fairly because i think that liturgical dance is not wrong in accordance with the GIRM, and what I have seen with my bishop and at WYD in FRONT OF THE POPE HIMSELF. Im not saying that liturgical dance should be at every mass. But I am saying on special occasions with the Bishops ok there should be nothing wrong with it as long as it is done sparringly and gracefully. Like I said your question about being obedient to the church or dancing is not a fair one. And if some ppl happen to connect with God on a intimate level by dancing as a form of their worship who are we to condem them and i still stand by my statement that I picture Jesus smiling down at us as we dance and praisehis name because he is lord. I dont see him frowning and being upset with us. THe GIRM is not the only litugrical document in force here. If the Bishops Conference says NO dancing then there is NO dancing. If your Bishop chooses to break the rules laid down by his own conference in front of his superior thats on him. Please don't do the lets just love everybody - do your own thing - so its ok to treat rules as suggestions - argument. I am a child of the 60's so I know where that leads - the current lifestyle of 2003. St Augustine from back in the day said obedience is the highest form of love.
vianney Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 Ok I researched it for myself and you guys are right. Liturgical dance is NOT permitted in the west. I am at a loss as to why the GIRM wouldnt address the situation.
vianney Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 This remains the law today. In 1994 the same Vatican congregation ruled: "Among some peoples, singing is instinctively accompanied by handclapping, rhythmic swaying, and dance movements on the part of the participants. Such forms of external expression can have a place in the liturgical actions of these peoples on condition that they are always the expression of true communal prayer of adoration, praise, offering and supplication, and not simply a performance" (Instruction on Inculturation and the Roman Liturgy, 42; ital. added). I guess it all depends on your definition of dancing. I raise my hands and sing while clapping and using hand motions while i pray, I think this is ok. But I can see where parading in while dancing can be wrong and is wrong according to the Vatican.
cmotherofpirl Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 I have no problem with swaying and clapping etc either. But in the Erie diocese teenage girls in tutus dance around the altar. I did hear Mass attendance among teenage boys then increased, but I don't think they came for the Eucharist. ;)
vianney Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 ha ha i guess that would be considered DISTASTEFUL form of liturgical dance... Look I try very hard to be obiedent to the church and one thing I dont want is our church changing with the "culture" because our culture is carp. Hence the skimpy dancers dancing around the altar. I guess my experience of Liturgical Dance has been a better one and I see hand motions with the song as a form of dance but obviously we have different definitions of dance. I would agree though that people dancing around the altar would make me feel awckward and it is against the mass in the west...But I would like to know why...I mean as long as it is done tastefully and reverantly and not overdone why would there be a problem with it? Is it the performance aspect of it?
jasJis Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 Not so, Jas. The Last Supper was a seder, a time of remembering , singing and stories. It is a gathering or friends and family. It was certainly not Lent. Sorry CMom, I was trying to tie in the solemnity of Lenten Liturgeis with the emotional tone that was probably evident at the Last Supper. I didn't mean that Seder was always somber, but it must have been a pretty somber Passover meal on that particular occaission because the Apostles could not fathom or imagine Easter. It does kinda make you wonder how the Apostles felt on that day. To actually know Jesus in person. Walking and talking with him as a physically present human, with a growing awareness of his Divinity, and then be told that he's going to be killed and witness that. To know Christ so intimately on one level, but to not know of His Ressurection yet. On the Liturgical Dance thing. LT doesn't have it as part of the Liturgy. Some people may argue that handmotions, swaying, and clapping is dance, but it's done by the congregation, not others as part of the Mass. My question is if this would not fall under the Discipline Authority of the Bishop to allow in certain circumstances, but is not allowed as a Liturgical Norm? As an example, allowing non-Catholics to recieve the Eucharist is permitted by the authority of the Bishop, but not allowed by Priest's authority.
cmotherofpirl Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 ha ha i guess that would be considered DISTASTEFUL form of liturgical dance... Look I try very hard to be obiedent to the church and one thing I dont want is our church changing with the "culture" because our culture is carp. Hence the skimpy dancers dancing around the altar. I guess my experience of Liturgical Dance has been a better one and I see hand motions with the song as a form of dance but obviously we have different definitions of dance. I would agree though that people dancing around the altar would make me feel awckward and it is against the mass in the west...But I would like to know why...I mean as long as it is done tastefully and reverantly and not overdone why would there be a problem with it? Is it the performance aspect of it? First, the Last Supper didn't involve Mary leading a chorus line around the table. It followed the set form of a sedar, and Jesus transformed it by changing the words to make himself the sacrifice instead of the lamb. He said do THIS in rememberance of me. And so the Church has done so for 2000 years. Unlike the Hawaiians, Indians, Native Americans, Balinese etc, the culture you and I live in does not have a tradition of sacred dance. We are only several hundred years old. In our culture dance is anything but sacred. Ballroom and square dances are not designed to lift our spirits to God. So to put some kind of dance into an suburban American Mass while possibly could be aesthetically pleasing to some people, it is a novelty and has nothing culturally normal about it. When we come together as a Mass we come together as the Body of Christ. Altar servers, lectors, chanters and cantors have a legitimate part to play and come from the community. What would the legitimate part of a dancer to be? In America we celebrate the perversion of the body on a daily basis so introducing dancing in the liturgy would be particularly dangerous. I wasn't kidding about the increase of Mass attendance in the church were girls in tutus swirled around the Altar. Women dancing around an altar harkens more the the worship of Baal, or the pagan goddesses than the God of the Old and New Testaments.
jasJis Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 CMom, Personally, I agree with you 100% about Liturgical dance within the Liturgy. I personally would be creeped out. But that's my opinion. (Personally, I'm much more offended by seeing exposed midriffs, short skits/shorts, cut off jeans, exposed boxers, low slung pantaloons (male & female), and inappropriate t-shirts.) How could we find out if this is not something that falls under the authority of the Bishop? Even if I may not agree with the Bishop's opinion on something, it doesn't make the Bishop wrong (or right). I'd rather spend the time getting people to finish dressing before they go to church instead of worrying about them dancing. Now dancing in Church with short skirts or pantaloons that won't stay up is too much horror for me to imagine...
Anna Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 (edited) (I attended a Mass once--in front of our bishop--where clowns took up the offertory gifts, including a heart shaped helium filled balloon.) There was also liturgical dancing, with a large black candle. I still remember one of the girls appeared to be dancing in purple satin pajamas. The dancers all lit little colored candles from the central black candle, danced around the altar, and carried the little candles out to the Faithful in the pews. I suppose it symbolized something...what, I don't know. jas, no one has even mentioned LT on this thread, just commenting on liturgical dancing in general. Signing is a form of communicating lyrics for deaf members of the congregation. That doesn't qualify as dancing in my book... Pax Christi. <>< Edited July 28, 2003 by Anna
vianney Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 thats crossing the line when clowns are there i mean cmon that isnt done tastefully
cmotherofpirl Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 CMom, Personally, I agree with you 100% about Liturgical dance within the Liturgy. I personally would be creeped out. But that's my opinion. (Personally, I'm much more offended by seeing exposed midriffs, short skits/shorts, cut off jeans, exposed boxers, low slung pantaloons (male & female), and inappropriate t-shirts.) How could we find out if this is not something that falls under the authority of the Bishop? Even if I may not agree with the Bishop's opinion on something, it doesn't make the Bishop wrong (or right). I'd rather spend the time getting people to finish dressing before they go to church instead of worrying about them dancing. Now dancing in Church with short skirts or pantaloons that won't stay up is too much horror for me to imagine... If the National Conference of Bishops says liturgical dancing is forbidden, then the bishop is bound to obey. THese regulations do not come in the form of suggestions. While the Bishop is the chief liturgist in the diocese, he is bound by GIRM, indults and regs the same as the rest of us. So if my Bishop says to stand for the Eucharist prayer instead of kneel or to dance down the aisle or recieve Communion on the tongue only, I am not bound to obey him. So Bishop Trautman allowing liturgical dancing is wrong, just as a Bishop who permits intercommunion is wrong. We are called to be faithful to the Church, not the local Bishop or priest if he is in error. Blind obedience is no obedience at all.
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