Observations

[hyperdulia again]

Plenty of Evangelicals care about one "denomination" in particular, *lots* of Evangelicals do not think Catholics are even Christians.

[mulls]

sure they "care" about their denomination....what i meant is that a true evangelical shouldn't tell somebody to join their denomination over another one. it really just comes down to the individual church.

as far as your second statement, i know it's true, why did you bring it up here?

[mulls]

for example I attend an Assemblies of God church.

i would never tell anyone to join this denomination. i would however encourage someone to check out my church, because it's a really good individual church. i can't speak for every AG church in the world though.

[M.SIGGA]

how would you go about telling what this particular church teaches if it might be different from another aog church. i'm confused because from my experiences (not labeling or directing), a lot of evangelicals that i'm friends with label themselves as aog or baptist or church of christ because that is where they are attending at the moment. with a title like aog or baptist an entire doctrine comes with it - just like someone who call themself catholic has to believe in the eucharist, or how an episcopalian has to believe in the equality of faith and reason. is this the root of what you are talking about? because if it is, it seems like it's going to be difficult to have a debate. this is where i am confused.

[cmotherofpirl]

Mulls what do you want us to do? Our positions are consistant, but protestantism goes from a-z. Do we have to preface every statement well this is what was taught in this specific place during these years at this particular denomination?

This is what drives us crazy. Because even if you and circle say we don't believe such and such, there will be someone out there somewhere who says "O yes we do". Should we make the standard what Baptists believe or Aog or CofC or evangelical or fundamentalist or generic or lutheran or anglican or presbyterian.?

The only thing that consistantly unites most non-catholics is their stand against the Church. And that varies from group to group., and place to place.

[Anna]

mulls,

I'm sorry that you feel that we're mischaracterizing your denomination.

I, for my part, (since I am probably one of the two!) have always sought info on the AofG from official AofG sites, and quoted them verbatum, usually citing the source.

I think I recall way back one time when you said that the AofG didn't consider drinking a sin. Then, I pointed out to you that the official AofG papers on the subject do prohibit drinking. Then, dancing...etc.....Remember?

Are you sure you really know what the A of G officially teaches???

I mean, I've been Catholic all my life, and I still learn new things--quite often--that my Church teaches.

I don't mean to sound like I'm putting you down.

But when I learn something new about my Church's teachings, it's usually consistent with all her other teachings (what am I saying, "usually"? ALWAYS! Duh!) and I just kinda smack myself in the forehead and say, "Why didn't I already know this?!"

I'm sad that you don't seem to like much of what you're seeing here these days. I hope things can better.

I know I need to improve in many ways.

Pax Christi. <><

[Bruce S]

Plenty of Evangelicals care about one "denomination" in particular, *lots* of Evangelicals do not think Catholics are even Christians

Grin. True.

In a goofy aside, I am actually DEFENDING Catholics all the time on this charge.

In another aside...

This fall, I joined our church Evangelism team. We, like good "Jehova's Witnesses" [insider joke on us] go door to door. NOT to get people to any denomination, not even our church frankly [this is hard by the way if you have never done it...]

Anyway, one of our first questions is:

"Are you currently a Christian?"

Honest here, I'm NOT making this one up...

About 2/3'rs of the population around here is RC.

About 1/2 of those who are RC when we ask this question answer..

"No, I'm a Catholic!"

I almost pee my pantaloons when that answer comes back. I NEVER have tried ONCE to convert a Catholic OUT of his or her faith when we do the door to door thing, in fact, when we find out they don't attend Mass, I suggest they do. I have even [shudder] asked them to pray for US, say a Rosary or a Hail Mary if they allow us to pray for their needs.

But, going back here, you would not believe how many hard core Fundamentalists lump the Catholic Church into the other cults.

It is harsh, uncalled for, but so many things RC's do, and don't even know they are doing, makes those Protestants who don't take the time to actually INVESTIGATE the reality, of the Catholic Church, good and bad, as a Christian denomination.

I hate having to be the bad guy HERE, and then when defending the Catholic Church there, be the bad guy there too.

I defend Catholics all the time as Christians, fully, completely, and totally. AND...note and challenge the "distinctives" and the corruption that no one here really seems to mind, or care about.

Not an easy thing to do, wear two hats all the time, the pro and con hats.

That is why I watch EWTN, they have some of the finest minds on TV, for education on CHRISTIAN issues, when they get off on the Catholic "distinctives" I sort of tune it out.

But, unlike some here, I live for truth, wherever that may be found. And I'm NOT a denominational bigot either, I move around a little, gather the goodies wherever they may be found, and walk away from the bad wherever it exists.

In our pond too, I might add.

[Bruce S]

Mulls what do you want us to do? Our positions are consistant, but protestantism goes from a-z.

Bull.

You have almost as much divergency as anyone else. You have NUNS who are advocating Sophia, you have Priests who are in open rebellion with Vatican II, I know the score. Don't play the "we are united" game, if you troll the nets, go look at CATHOLIC sites and compare them with official positions.

It is a "we SAY we do" them.

But many many don't. I know that, you know that. So, don't be coy.

[TABBY]

as catholics, you don't really care what my own opinions of catholicism are, right? you want me to take it for what its worth, for what it really teaches, right?

I care. What exactly do you mean by give out your opionion?

well, i believe i've done a solid job of learning and discerning what catholicism really teaches, and what it doesn't.

Really? So you are converting? I mean if one really does study Caholicism enough they end up being a Catholic...a perfect example is Patrick Madrid. He spent many years trying to prove Catholics to be wrong, but he couldnt find a flaw so he converted.

all i ask is for the same respect when I (we) explain certain things to you. I don't care what you think of them personally, I just want you to know what it truly means to us, what it truly teaches, whether you agree or not. I don't agree with catholicism, but I don't exaggerate about it or spread lies or false information about it. I let my opinions be known, but I make sure people know that they are only my opinions, and nothing else.

That is fair enough.

So please be respectful, when we explain something, please take it into consideration. Please do us the honor of asking yourself "why is this important to them, how does it affect their relationship with Jesus, and why?" do not condemn, do not exaggerate, do not blatantly misrepresent what we're trying to explain, for the sake of proving catholicism right.

I dont know enough to know what you mean by "be respectful" are you meaning that the Catholics are calling you names or what? Or does it mean when you give out your thoughts about your belief and then the Catholics give out theirs and it is different from yours?

Catholicism is right to you, and I understand that. Try to understand what is true to me (us, and millions of other people).

Yes....but differences can confuse another. I mean if one thing is true for one and a different truth for another then there is two difference truths, right? I will understand that what ever you believe is true for you.

Not too much to ask, is it?

No.

you don't want us to tell you what you believe, so don't tell us what we believe.

I think I understand now what you mean by "be respectful"....

Edited January 12, 2004 by TABBY

[PedroX]

One of the differences that I've noted over the years of my study of Catholicism prior to my conversion is how Protestants (including evangelicals) and Catholics treat their church documents. My last protestant church was Presbyterian (PCA) and they had two well written documents: The Westminster confession of Faith, and the Book of Church Order. These documents were supposed to govern the faith, morals and governance issues of the denomination and the local congregation. However, very few people had any working knowledge of these documents. When discussing issues in the church I would often refer to these documents only to be told that "we don't really follow those".

Catholics (devout, practicing ones) almost always go first to the official documents of the Church. This links directly to what Anna pointed out. We (Catholics) are directly connected to our Church documents. We do cite them and we try to be obedient to them. So, when we talk to Protestants (including evangelicals) we expect the same thing. This leads to mass confusion and mis-communication. In our minds it is perfectly reasonable to go to a denomination's web-site and pull from their statement of faith or whatever and expect members of said denomination to agree and follow said documents.

I hope this helps. I'm sorry if it only adds to the confusion.

Mulls, please know that we respect you and your relationship with God. Please also know that many of us converts do have vast experience in the Protestant (including evangelical) world. We mourn the loss of relationships that our conversion cost us. We would love nothing more than to be reunited with our brothers and sisters, but the Truth cost us too much to compromise now.

peace...

[Bruce S]

Really? So you are converting? I mean if one really does study Caholicism enough they end up being a Catholic...

Argh.

Come on now. 2/3'rds of the American Christians are NOT Catholic, and there are hundreds of thousands of those that have looked at the Catholic Church with open eyes, rejected it and don't agree.

That includes hundreds of thousands of Catholics that have left for other pastures.

What a biased remark!

This leads to mass confusion and mis-communication. In our minds it is perfectly reasonable to go to a denomination's web-site and pull from their statement of faith or whatever and expect members of said denomination to agree and follow said documents.

Why? Are we reqired to buy into a totality system? That is a massive difference. Just about any Protestant can attend a service from another denomination, feel at home, and just blend in.

To us, locksteeping to some tune written in Latin isn't the gameplan.

Sorry.

You know that, too, so don't make generalizations that lump Protestants into one mold. Doesn't work that way, and you know those statements are incendiary, and others would disagree.

Edited January 12, 2004 by Bruce S

[Bruce S]

However, very few people had any working knowledge of these documents. When discussing issues in the church I would often refer to these documents only to be told that "we don't really follow those".

Catholics (devout, practicing ones) almost always go first to the official documents of the Church.

Ah, so you are comparing uneducated Protestants, those who are not steeped in the doctrines, with those Catholic Church who are militant knowlege types?

Apples to apples.

There ARE many Protestants who know exactly what they believe, and know exactly what Catholics SAY they believe, and so often don't do, and that includes the clergy by the way.

Play fair here.

[cmotherofpirl]

Bull.

You have almost as much divergency as anyone else. You have NUNS who are advocating Sophia, you have Priests who are in open rebellion with Vatican II, I know the score. Don't play the "we are united" game, if you troll the nets, go look at CATHOLIC sites and compare them with official positions.

It is a "we SAY we do" them.

But many many don't. I know that, you know that. So, don't be coy.

Yes but as you know none of that is Church doctrine ,is it?

[Bruce S]

Yes but as you know none of that is Church doctrine ,is it?

Nope. Certainly isn't.

But why is it GAME fair here to note that Protestants have oddities, and not yours too?

If they ARE CATHOLIC clergy, and in rebellion to the Catholic Church, and are not tossed out for it, they are still INSIDE of the Catholic Church, and the rebellion is part of the Catholic Church, not external because some document somewhere disavows what is really happening all too often.

There was a thread here recently, harshly critical of certain Pentecostal individual movements, they were part of a larger body, they were out of synch with the teachings, WRITTEN teachings of that body.

Yet, the Catholics here harped on them, trying to tie the over the top stuff to the entire OFFICIAL body.

You do it all the time here, so don't pretend that doesn't happen.

OK?