Projectors During Liturgy?

[scardella]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1093884' date='Oct 17 2006, 10:47 AM']
How'd I guess you'd say that?????
[/quote]

Umm, because WWST is a fairly simple procedure? (WWST = what would scardella think?)

[Cam42]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1093997' date='Oct 17 2006, 12:21 PM']
Organs, by the way, used to be associated with the sinful lifestyles portrayed in oprahs. Now we think they're the musical instrument equivalent of Jesus. It all depends on your perspective
[/quote]

That argument has been tried before. It doesn't hold water, because the Church has rendered it to be an apt instrument for Worship. Take this segue over to the debate table...there is a thread on it already going strong.....





Nice try though.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1093990' date='Oct 17 2006, 02:10 PM']
September 3, 1958. But what difference does it make?

[url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/Index/2/SubIndex/17/DocumentIndex/243"]De Musica Sacra[/url]
[/quote]

I think it needs updated a bit

[Cam42]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1094057' date='Oct 17 2006, 01:25 PM']
I think it needs updated a bit
[/quote]

Nope. The document is still just as acceptable and authoritative as ever.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

O know a priest who types up is homily, and often has his laptop on the lecturn for his homily.

What is the implications then, when this document says we can use devices to help transmit audio in the litury or private devotion, and JPII said that you can electronically transmit the mass from one place to another and those watching it LIVE and participating from their location, would get the same graces as those at the location proper. This is used often in cases like overflow rooms. I went to a funeral last year that had the Church filled to standing only capacity, people standing in crowds outside listening throught the doorway of any opening or window, and several rooms in side buildings where other people would watch a video projection of the mass from the remote location. This document says it's wrong, but JPII says iy's OK. So, am I missing something, or did JPII change it?

I can't find JPII's document right now. I know Fr. Pacwa quoted it on EWTN though

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1094063' date='Oct 17 2006, 03:35 PM']
Nope. The document is still just as acceptable and authoritative as ever.
[/quote]
It still needs updated, technology has changed just a bit since 1958.

[stbernardLT]

How do the eldery watch all those masses on tv if electronics aren't allowed in mass (cameras). I guess we can't use mics anymore because they are electronic audio devices. I would like to know how a projector fallls into the catergory of audio devices before we actually name audio devices, in the case of the mic and pa system. Oh no some churches have electronic bells. Maybe we should hold off on canonizing JPII, since he was liturgically incorrect when he celebrated mass with projectors. I think it is time to stop being tedious.

Projectors can serve the same purpose as missals The only difference is people look up rather than down into their lap. With appropriate reverrence, i don't see how this is a negative thing. And I don't agree with Cam's interpreataion of those documents.

[Cam42]

[quote name='stbernardLT' post='1094100' date='Oct 17 2006, 02:37 PM']
How do the eldery watch all those masses on tv if electronics aren't allowed in mass (cameras). I guess we can't use mics anymore because they are electronic audio devices. I would like to know how a projector fallls into the catergory of audio devices before we actually name audio devices, in the case of the mic and pa system. Oh no some churches have electronic bells. Maybe we should hold off on canonizing JPII, since he was liturgically incorrect when he celebrated mass with projectors. I think it is time to stop being tedious.

Projectors can serve the same purpose as missals The only difference is people look up rather than down into their lap. With appropriate reverrence, i don't see how this is a negative thing. And I don't agree with Cam's interpreataion of those documents.
[/quote]

As far as projection of the human voice, that is covered in the document. I have posted that before.

And I assume that the elderly watch Mass on TV with their eyes.

Where have I said anything about TV? You are all assuming that I have made some sort of statement about them. I have not.

And I don't really care what you think of my interpretation. It is in line with the documentation of the Church. It is a good thing that the Church is tedious about these things, because all too often the members are not and that is a problem when dealing with reverence.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='stbernardLT' post='1094100' date='Oct 17 2006, 04:37 PM']
when he celebrated mass with projectors. I think it is time to stop being tedious.

Projectors can serve the same purpose as missals The only difference is people look up rather than down into their lap. With appropriate reverrence, i don't see how this is a negative thing. And I don't agree with Cam's interpreataion of those documents.
[/quote]
I generally agree until you get to projectors, they have absolutely no reason to be at Mass. We don't go to Mass to read the Word of God, we go to hear [ as in proclaimed] it. Missals are useful for music, but anyone who goes to Mass for more than several weeks should have the parts of the Mass down pat and not be reading anything.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

Cmom,

I agree with yo for the most part. I do not believe that a projector is necessary for a typical parish setting. I can see a possible exception that it could save money (better stewardship of resources) for some parishes to use a projector for the words of the music, rather than paying for missals??? However I am not strongly planted in that position. I do see projectors playing a good role for larger masses where it is not possible to see. Such as having a camara and projecting the image on a screen for those in the back to be able to visually be conected to the Priest at the alter. I agree that the text of the prayers, readings ect. do not need to be projected in any case.

[cmotherofpirl]

Missals are a one time investment for a parish, they don't have to be seasonal brochures. I have been going to Mass at cathedral for years, its not a requirement to closely watch the priest in order to be connected to Christ. Most altars and pulpits are elevated enough so you know whats going on, and with mics you can hear the whole Mass clearly.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

What about large outdoor masses like WYD, large funerals too large for everyone t be in one location ect. Do you still think projectors are inappropriate in these cases?

[Church Punk]

How does this document affect Papal masses from both St. Peters and a broad that are televised and broadcasted?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='PadrePioOfPietrelcino' post='1094167' date='Oct 17 2006, 05:50 PM']
What about large outdoor masses like WYD, large funerals too large for everyone t be in one location ect. Do you still think projectors are inappropriate in these cases?
[/quote]

I have seen funeral Masses [ such as our late Pgh Mayor] be televised to the neighboring social hall so all those who show up can see it. I see nothing wrong with this at all. That is not the same as using a projector in church for those people already in the church.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

I think we agree then. I do not have a problem with the use of projectors during the liturdy, just HOW and WHEN they are used in the liturgy. there is a proper place for them, and the norm is not in the normal parish setting.

[cmotherofpirl]

However this doers not square with the document quoted.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

The document seems to be prohibiting technology that replaces an element of music. A projector which aids in showing the words servers the same purpose as a hymnal or missal would, so the function is being swiched to another medium. The question of projection the mass into another area, it taken care of by a document, which I will look for which talks about media and the mass. So I don't see a contradiction there.



I found this answer on EWTN in regards to televised mass. this is the closest I have found so far. I'm still searching.

[quote]
Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 01-06-2004:

Just as you cannot receive absolution except in person (e.g. not over the phone, or by letter etc.; the Holy See has rule at least twice on this point), you cannot participate in the Mass sacramentally by radio or television. Yes, your devout remote participation is meritorious and pleasing to God if you cannot get to Mass (and He no doubt will give you some special grace as a result), but it does not suffice for the graces of sacramental participation, or for fulfilling the obligation to participate sacramentally in the Holy Sacrifice on Sundays or Holy Days of Obligation. This is inherent, for example, in the fact that we speak of making a "spiritual" communion, as opposed to a "sacramental" communion, for those who view and listen to the Mass, or who make such "communions" during the day outside of Mass.

With regard to the blessing, Pope Pius XI ruled, at the time of the invention of radio, that blessings could be received live by electronic means. However, a taped blessing is only a record of a live blessing not an actual blessing. So, if you watch a Mass live you would be blessed at the time of the blessing, but if you watched it on replay you would not, since a priest is not actually giving a blessing at that time. [/quote]

[scardella]

[quote]The use of automatic instruments and machines, such as the automatic organ, phonograph, radio, tape or wire recorders, and other similar machines, is absolutely forbidden in liturgical functions and private devotions, whether they are held inside or outside the church, even if these machines be used only to transmit sermons or sacred music, or to substitute for the singing of the choir or faithful, or even just to support it.[/quote]

So, Cam... according to your interpretation, an LCD projector is forbidden, but a transparency projector, which is not automatic is OK?

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1094154' date='Oct 17 2006, 04:43 PM']
Missals are a one time investment for a parish, they don't have to be seasonal brochures. I have been going to Mass at cathedral for years, its not a requirement to closely watch the priest in order to be connected to Christ. Most altars and pulpits are elevated enough so you know whats going on, and with mics you can hear the whole Mass clearly.
[/quote]

The parts of the Mass, yes; you should be able to memorize and follow along after a while. However, the music changes from week to week (If I recall correctly, it should be chosen to harmonize w/ the readings, correct?). I do not see a liturgical difference between lyrics printed on paper and lyrics projected on a screen.

Edited October 17, 2006 by scardella

[cmotherofpirl]

referring to lyrics in a hymal if you don't know the words is far different than a screen hanging somewhere in the church. The first is not really noticeable, the second is intrusive. Your eyes should be on the altar.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1093801' date='Oct 17 2006, 08:13 AM']
I think that you are referring to this document, however it is pre-Vatican Council II and to vague, so I don't think that it will hold any weight with you, Scardella.

I'll post it anyways:
Other similar machines to the phonograph, tape recorders and wire recorders would be mp3 players, cd players and yes projectors.....how can I say this....well projectors do what is forbidden in the last part of the article.
[/quote]
A little off-topic, but in my parish, they started playing Gregorian chant over the sound system during the Saturday confession period. Would that be forbidden according to that document? (personally, it doesn't really bother me - it helps create a prayerful reverent mood and helps drown out distracting noise, though it is recorded, rather than live, music.)