Mass In Overcrowded Churches

[Resurrexi]

If Mass is being said in an overcrowded church on a Sunday or Holyday would it fufill your obligation to stand outside of the church with the rest of the people who cannot fit in it?

[brendan1104]

Yes.

[Resurrexi]

You have a refrence?

[brendan1104]

Sunday Canonizations at St. Peter's Square- Padre Pio, Sr. Faustina, etc.

[Mercy me]

Unless you are going to another mass.....

[Resurrexi]

Even if you were going to another Mass, from what Brendan said, your obligation would already be fufilled.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1096348' date='Oct 19 2006, 09:48 PM']
If Mass is being said in an overcrowded church on a Sunday or Holyday would it fufill your obligation to stand outside of the church with the rest of the people who cannot fit in it?
[/quote]
If you cannot see or hear the Mass, how can it fulfill your obligation to BE at Mass?

[shortnun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1098950' date='Oct 23 2006, 10:41 AM']
If you cannot see or hear the Mass, how can it fulfill your obligation to BE at Mass?
[/quote]
Here are my questions to better answer the original question:

~ Is your true desire to be participating in Mass?
~ Do you have the means/ability to go to another Mass?

StThomasMore's question is a perfectly legitimate question, but it needs more of a context.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1099018' date='Oct 23 2006, 12:44 PM']
Here are my questions to better answer the original question:

~ Is your true desire to be participating in Mass?
~ Do you have the means/ability to go to another Mass?

StThomasMore's question is a perfectly legitimate question, but it needs more of a context.
[/quote]
Yes it is. But Brendons simple yes isn't really a good enough response so I am trying to elicit a better one with another question.

[onlygrace08]

I have another question pertaining to this one... is it a mortal sin to deliberately not go to Mass on Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation?

God Bless

Anna

[Birgitta Noel]

Yes, unless you have a grave reason, ie something that is out of your control...for example, you are caring for someone and there is no one to take your place...

[onlygrace08]

[quote name='onlygrace08' post='1099348' date='Oct 23 2006, 06:44 PM']
I have another question pertaining to this one... is it a mortal sin to deliberately not go to Mass on Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation?

God Bless

Anna
[/quote]


[quote name='The Little Way' post='1099361' date='Oct 23 2006, 06:57 PM']
Yes, unless you have a grave reason, ie something that is out of your control...for example, you are caring for someone and there is no one to take your place...
[/quote]


Just one more question.... if the person didn't know that it was a mortal sin to miss Mass, is it still considered a mortal sin? In other words, do they still have to go to confession?

God Bless

Anna

[Cam42]

[quote name='onlygrace08' post='1099366' date='Oct 23 2006, 06:03 PM']
Just one more question.... if the person didn't know that it was a mortal sin to miss Mass, is it still considered a mortal sin? In other words, do they still have to go to confession?

God Bless

Anna
[/quote]

Anna,

If that were the case, then no, it would not be a mortal sin, however, I find it hard to believe that at some point your hypothetical person, being a Catholic was not told (or had it explained to them) that attending Mass was a requirement.

I am sure that someone can use that excuse, however, if in the deepest of their hearts they know then this applies:

[quote name='CCC #1859']Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. [b]Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.[/b][/quote]

However, it is very unlikely that someone doesn't know and can claim inculpability. It is basic catechetical teaching that the Church obliges us to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation and to receive Holy Communion frequently.

[quote name='CCC #1389']The Church obliges the faithful to take part in the Divine Liturgy on Sundays and feast days and, prepared by the sacrament of Reconciliation, to receive the Eucharist at least once a year, if possible during the Easter season. But the Church strongly encourages the faithful to receive the holy Eucharist on Sundays and feast days, or more often still, even daily.[/quote]

So, I would probably say that the hypothetical person is guilty of mortal sin if he is missing Mass, because of the utter basic nature of not knowing Mass attendance is mandatory, based upon CCC #1389.

I know that some will say that I am being way to harsh, but in this hypothetical discussion, I find it very hard to believe that a Catholic doesn't know that he is to attend Mass on the above mentioned days.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1098950' date='Oct 23 2006, 09:41 AM']
If you cannot see or hear the Mass, how can it fulfill your obligation to BE at Mass?
[/quote]

Because if one is present at the Liturgy, and engages the Liturgy with [i]participatio actuosa[/i] rather than just [i]participatio activa[/i] then he is fully engaging the Mass, regardless of whether or not he can see the celebrant.

A blind, deaf-mute can fufill his obligation in the same manner and be sitting in the front pew.

Let me ask you this.....who is participating more....the Jewish man who sits up front, makes the responses, sits, stands, kneels, sings and prays.....or the little old Catholic lady in the back of the church praying her rosary, until the consecration, puts it away, then gets it back out and continues until Holy Communion?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1099386' date='Oct 23 2006, 08:32 PM']
Anna,

If that were the case, then no, it would not be a mortal sin, however, I find it hard to believe that at some point your hypothetical person, being a Catholic was not told (or had it explained to them) that attending Mass was a requirement.

I am sure that someone can use that excuse, however, if in the deepest of their hearts they know then this applies:
However, it is very unlikely that someone doesn't know and can claim inculpability. It is basic catechetical teaching that the Church obliges us to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation and to receive Holy Communion frequently.
So, I would probably say that the hypothetical person is guilty of mortal sin if he is missing Mass, because of the utter basic nature of not knowing Mass attendance is mandatory, based upon CCC #1389.

I know that some will say that I am being way to harsh, but in this hypothetical discussion, I find it very hard to believe that a Catholic doesn't know that he is to attend Mass on the above mentioned days.
Because if one is present at the Liturgy, and engages the Liturgy with [i]participatio actuosa[/i] rather than just [i]participatio activa[/i] then he is fully engaging the Mass, regardless of whether or not he can see the celebrant.

A blind, deaf-mute can fufill his obligation in the same manner and be sitting in the front pew.

Let me ask you this.....who is participating more....the Jewish man who sits up front, makes the responses, sits, stands, kneels, sings and prays.....or the little old Catholic lady in the back of the church praying her rosary, until the consecration, puts it away, then gets it back out and continues until Holy Communion?
[/quote]

That was not the question:
"If Mass is being said in an overcrowded church on a Sunday or Holyday would it fufill your obligation to stand outside of the church with the rest of the people who cannot fit in it?"

If you are standing outside, how can it be said you are attending Mass?

[Cam42]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1099417' date='Oct 23 2006, 07:06 PM']
That was not the question:
"If Mass is being said in an overcrowded church on a Sunday or Holyday would it fufill your obligation to stand outside of the church with the rest of the people who cannot fit in it?"

If you are standing outside, how can it be said you are attending Mass?
[/quote]

Particpatio actuosa. Just because you can't see the celebrant, doesn't mean that you can't assent your mind, will, and soul to what is going on in the church. If your intent is to attend the Mass, and you are standing outside the church then you are engaging in participatio actuosa.

I believe that you are confusing participatio actuosa (full, conscious, and active participation) with participatio activa (the outward physical action) of the person intending to go to Mass.

[cmotherofpirl]

Our pastors have always taught if you were not [i]in[/i] church when the gospel started you have to go to another Mass. If the church pews were filled, you sat on the floor and along the walls, or in the vestibules or even the doorways[sp] but you had to be there, not outside to fulfill your Mass obligation.

[onlygrace08]

Thank you so much for answering my questions!! Sorry about the ...

God Bless

Anna

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1097667' date='Oct 21 2006, 11:54 AM']
Unless you are going to another mass.....
[/quote]

The effects of sinus medication are not pretty. I can't even figure out what I was replying to. Sorry pham.

[Birgitta Noel]

I think there's two things going on here.

First:
[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1099532' date='Oct 23 2006, 10:13 PM']
Our pastors have always taught if you were not [i]in[/i] church when the gospel started you have to go to another Mass.[/quote]

Yes, to the best of my understanding the Gospel is the absolute minimum starting point. Though I have heard it argued that the entire liturgy of the Word is required to have it "count." I think that's what your pastor meant by "IN" church.

Secondly:
[quote] If the church pews were filled, you sat on the floor and along the walls, or in the vestibules or even the doorways[sp] but you had to be there, not outside to fulfill your Mass obligation.
[/quote]
I've never heard this. I can think of Easter one year when we arrived just after mass began and there was no room in the Church and it was stifiling IN the Church. We stood just outside the doors on the steps of the Church. While it was admittedly less than ideal we still "participated" in the mass and intended to attend the mass. We were physically present though not under the roof of the Church.

I'm not sure if that's where the confusion or disagreement is, but that's where I saw things getting all confused

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1099386' date='Oct 23 2006, 08:32 PM']
Let me ask you this.....who is participating more....the Jewish man who sits up front, makes the responses, sits, stands, kneels, sings and prays.....or the little old Catholic lady in the back of the church praying her rosary, until the consecration, puts it away, then gets it back out and continues until Holy Communion?
[/quote]

Whoever offers their heart in worship.

Isn't that what's missing from this conversation? We all know what the Church says, but that stuff assumes that you're offering the sacrifice of a contrite heart. If you want to be there to worship God and the sanctuary is too crowded, then it's a situation outside of your control.

Don't worry so much about following the letter of the law that it takes the joy out of being a Christian.

Besides, after Communion there will be enough empty seats that you can go inside and get your final blessing and sing a little song.