The Place Of Religion In Politics

[Kosh]

Just was studying this and thought it'd be cool to have your opinions. What do you think the place (if any) of religion in politics is? Why?

~T3h K0sh

[Fr. Antony Maria OSB]

My opinion on religion in politics would have to be vote my concience and follow the Church's teachings at all times. As to being a politician and bringing religion into politics, I would have to say that, in the extremely small chance I became a politician, I would have the same stance as I do on voting. As for other politicians (and really politics in general), I know next to nothing about politics other than it is very complex and I don't like it (too much lying, deceit, etc.), so I'll tend to not talk about politics too much. Of course, if some political stance contradicts the teachings of the Church, that makes for a very interesting debate, but overall I don't really know what to say about this, so I'll just stop rambling now.

[Kosh]

I would agree there that someone's own conscience (including things they know from church teaching or not) and their own experiences would be the best things to vote from. However, I think lots of people think we all should vote/act publically from "reason" alone without any religions interferrence.

[Fr. Antony Maria OSB]

I agree with you that many people do vote that way, as can be seen in American (and probobly in many other countries') politics. That is something that I just don't understand: for something that is so important (or supposed to be important), as religion, why do so many people say, 'Well, when it comes to politics religion just doesn't count.' That's like saying that when it comes to swimming oxygen doesn't count. It just doesn't make sense.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Kosh' post='1097386' date='Oct 21 2006, 12:00 AM']
Just was studying this and thought it'd be cool to have your opinions. What do you think the place (if any) of religion in politics is? Why?

~T3h K0sh
[/quote]
If you are catholic you vote according to catholic teaching , religion is not something you leave outside the voting booth door. We have the same rights and responsibilities
as all other citizens in regard to public service.
So if you are a politician, claim to be catholic, and then vote for abortion, gay marriage etc - those things any catholic cannot vote for, then you are a hypocrite and a sinner.

[homeschoolmom]

A person's religion defines their values. How can you not vote in harmony with your values?

[Kosh]

Hmmm...I agree with everyone here. Cool!

[track2004]

How much religion should be in politics is determined by the political environment. Theoracy sure all the religion you can muster. Republic not so much.

I think the Conservative Christians needs to get the heck outta (right wing) politics because it is hurting the country. Our politics is based on logic and pragmaticism and who can fight a logic that says "God says it's this way"? Personally I think we need more moderates running our country because this Rep/Dem thing is way out of hand.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='track2004' post='1097457' date='Oct 21 2006, 12:17 AM']
How much religion should be in politics is determined by the political environment. Theoracy sure all the religion you can muster. Republic not so much.

I think the Conservative Christians needs to get the heck outta (right wing) politics because it is hurting the country. Our politics is based on logic and pragmaticism and who can fight a logic that says "God says it's this way"? Personally I think we need more moderates running our country because this Rep/Dem thing is way out of hand.
[/quote]


Conservative Christians are the best thing for this nation. We're not getting the heck outta politics. The only way to make that happen would be to banned us simpley because we a christian and "right wing", that would be un-american. Moderates are a do nothing party, they take no stands on anything, doing so they would cease to be moderates and someone that took a side.

Abortion is WRONG

"Gay" Marriage is WRONG

Other sins that the leftist worship is WRONG

Because, God says its this way.

[Resurrexi]

Here's what the Church says-

The following were [color="#FF0000"]CONDEMNED[/color] as [color="#FF6600"]ERRORS[/color] by Blessed Pius IX
[quote name='Syllabus of Errors Condemned by Blessed Pius IX']
77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship. -- Allocution "Nemo vestrum," July 26, 1855.
78. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship. -- Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.
79. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism. -- Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856.
39. The State, as being the origin and source of all rights, is endowed with a certain right not circumscribed by any limits. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862.
40. The teaching of the Catholic Church is hostile to the well- being and interests of society. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846; Allocution "Quibus quantisque," April 20, 1849.
41. The civil government, even when in the hands of an infidel sovereign, has a right to an indirect negative power over religious affairs. It therefore possesses not only the right called that of "exsequatur," but also that of appeal, called "appellatio ab abusu." -- Apostolic Letter "Ad Apostolicae," Aug. 22, 1851
42. In the case of conflicting laws enacted by the two powers, the civil law prevails. -- Ibid.
43. The secular Dower has authority to rescind, declare and render null, solemn conventions, commonly called concordats, entered into with the Apostolic See, regarding the use of rights appertaining to ecclesiastical immunity, without the consent of the Apostolic See, and even in spite of its protest. -- Allocution "Multis gravibusque," Dec. 17, 1860; Allocution "In consistoriali," Nov. 1, 1850.
44. The civil authority may interfere in matters relating to religion, morality and spiritual government: hence, it can pass judgment on the instructions issued for the guidance of consciences, conformably with their mission, by the pastors of the Church. Further, it has the right to make enactments regarding the administration of the divine sacraments, and the dispositions necessary for receiving them. -- Allocutions "In consistoriali," Nov. 1, 1850, and "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862.[/quote]

[Era Might]

[quote]The just ordering of society and the State is a central responsibility of politics. As Augustine once said, a State which is not governed according to justice would be just a bunch of thieves: “Remota itaque iustitia quid sunt regna nisi magna latrocinia?”. Fundamental to Christianity is the distinction between what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God (cf. Mt 22:21), in other words, the distinction between Church and State, or, as the Second Vatican Council puts it, the autonomy of the temporal sphere. The State may not impose religion, yet it must guarantee religious freedom and harmony between the followers of different religions. For her part, the Church, as the social expression of Christian faith, has a proper independence and is structured on the basis of her faith as a community which the State must recognize. The two spheres are distinct, yet always interrelated.

--Pope Benedict XVI, Encyclical Letter "Deus Caritas Est"[/quote]

[MIKolbe]

People seem willing to create a false dichotomy between God (religion) and other various aspects of their lives:

Religion and Politics
Religion and Business (business practices)
Religion and Entertainment
Religion and Morals
Religion and the homeless guy you see on the street

I see people emphasizing the 'micro' (this is a relationship between me and God) part of religion when faced with these 'macro' issues listed above. They use 'logic' and attempt to justify their conflicting positions (Catholic who votes for abortion).

I think that is wrong.

It is a FALSE dichotomy.

Yes, my religion has a 'micro' aspect to it, but it is that micro aspect that influences, or perhaps should influence me, in every macro developement that i may encounter in my life.

Otherwise, am i not saying, "Jesus, i wish to follow you, but not right now"?

my 2 cents.

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1097465' date='Oct 21 2006, 02:36 AM']
Conservative Christians are the best thing for this nation. We're not getting the heck outta politics. The only way to make that happen would be to banned us simpley because we a christian and "right wing", that would be un-american. Moderates are a do nothing party, they take no stands on anything, doing so they would cease to be moderates and someone that took a side.

Abortion is WRONG

"Gay" Marriage is WRONG

Other sins that the leftist worship is WRONG

Because, God says its this way.
[/quote]

I take issue with pretty much every word that came out of your mouth but I'll confine my response to a few things:

1. "Conservative Christians are the best thing for this nation." I'm sorry, but it's not the Conservative crowd that's screwing things up: it's the fundamentalist, evangelical, no-reason nut jobs that absolutely refuse to have conversations about issues. I am against gay marriage and abortion, but I am more than happy to listen to the other side of the coin, not because I would ever agree with them, but because their opinion is valued. Furthermore, it's helpful to realize that the person you are speaking with is a good person who honestly believes that the way they think things oughta be is the most just, beneficial situation. They are wrong, but it's not our job to stick out our tongues and let them know that.

2. "Moderates are a do nothing party, they take no stands on anything, doing so they would cease to be moderates and someone that took a side." Wow. That is about as ignorant a statement as I've heard in the past few days. For one, moderates are NOT a party, nor are independents. If a person were to say that they are a moderate, it would most likely mean that they agree with things on both sides of the aisle: for instance, as a Catholic, it is my firm belief that abortion is wrong and should be illegal (a typical Republican more), but I also feel that we as Americans have the responsibility to do as much as we can financially to help those within our country who can barely make ends meet (the Democrat's view on social welfare). Moderates are people who realize that neither party has a monopoly on righteousness. This is why I believe that Catholics and Christians should not be tied down to the Republican party: it's not like God shines favor on one political ideology in this country. And, if you were to find a Democrat who was firmly against abortion, gay marriage and wanted to secure our borders, could you say that you wouldn't vote for him/her simply because they were a Democrat?

3. "Because God says it this way." God said that Americans must vote Republican? Wow...I guess I must've missed that. Is that decree buried somewhere within Leviticus or Deuteronomy? Because I can never seem to wrap my mind around all of the Mosaic law.

All I am saying here is that politicians, by and large, want to get elect and will say whatever is necessary to get your vote. Therefore we should understand that just because this person tells us something, doesn't mean he/she is going to do anything about it. Has George W. Bush done anything about gay marriage other than propose a Constitutional Amendment (which will absolutely NEVER get ratified)? We as Catholics need to vote the way our Holy Mother Church tells us to, but we also need to discern what is truth and what is political posturing. Further, we need to learn more about the political procedure so that we can know how to accomplish the goals we have. For instance, there is simply no way that we will wake up tomorrow and see Bush, or any Republican President, announce that abortion is illegal. In order to meet that end, we must go through the process, winning court battles, passing legislation that limits it. All the while, we must be willing to have discussions (not debates) about the dignity of human life. It's a comprehensive strategy that, unfortunately, will take time; however, it will allow us to look like civilized people rather than rabid-crazies that our movement often houses.

[track2004]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1097465' date='Oct 21 2006, 12:36 AM']
Conservative Christians are the best thing for this nation. We're not getting the heck outta politics. The only way to make that happen would be to banned us simpley because we a christian and "right wing", that would be un-american. Moderates are a do nothing party, they take no stands on anything, doing so they would cease to be moderates and someone that took a side.
[/quote]

Conservative Christians are the best thing for you because you're one of them. Fundy's are going to rip the nation apart though because not everyone agrees with them and they are going to ostrascize those of us who don't. Hey wait that was similar to your point, being unamerican and all. The US is a majority rule, but it also assumes the majority won't destroy the minority.

Moderates aren't do nothing, they just don't think that voting the party line is a good thing. We take stands on stuff, it's just different stands for different things. One might say we can think for ourselves.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1097465' date='Oct 21 2006, 12:36 AM']
Abortion is WRONG

"Gay" Marriage is WRONG

Other sins that the leftist worship is WRONG

Because, God says its this way.
[/quote]

Other sins that the leftist worship ARE wrong. I like grammar, at least I've got that going for me. I don't recall God ever saying anything about those crazy "leftists" in the Bible... or are you just extrapolating?

I like that you used the "God says" defense that I mentioned earlier. What am I supposed to say to that "No He didn't I asked Him last Thursday, but all He wanted to talk about was how Elijah beat Him in raquetball."

[Resurrexi]

Era, the Church does not support religious freedom or separation of Church from state.

[quote name='Bl. Pius IX in the Syllabus of Errors']
77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship. -- Allocution "Nemo vestrum," July 26, 1855.
55. The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church. -- Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.
[/quote]

Edited October 21, 2006 by StThomasMore

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1097781' date='Oct 21 2006, 02:57 PM']
Era, the Church does not support religious freedom or separation of Church from state.
[/quote]
STM, the Church does not support forcing people to believe against their wills.

[Resurrexi]

The Church does not believe in forcing persons to believe privately, but it does believe in forcing them not to say that they do not believe.

[Era Might]

[quote]Religious communities also have the right not to be hindered in their public teaching and witness to their faith, whether by the spoken or by the written word. However, in spreading religious faith and in introducing religious practices everyone ought at all times to refrain from any manner of action which might seem to carry a hint of coercion or of a kind of persuasion that would be dishonorable or unworthy, especially when dealing with poor or uneducated people. Such a manner of action would have to be considered an abuse of one's right and a violation of the right of others.

In addition, it comes within the meaning of religious freedom that religious communities should not be prohibited from freely undertaking to show the special value of their doctrine in what concerns the organization of society and the inspiration of the whole of human activity. Finally, the social nature of man and the very nature of religion afford the foundation of the right of men freely to hold meetings and to establish educational, cultural, charitable and social organizations, under the impulse of their own religious sense.

--Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, "Dignitatis Humanae"[/quote]

[Anomaly]

S-Tom-M,
You obviously don't know what the catholics teach in it's entirety.

1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order.32

1747 The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in religious and moral matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of man. But the exercise of freedom does not entail the putative right to say or do anything.

2107 "If because of the circumstances of a particular people special civil recognition is given to one religious community in the constitutional organization of a state, the right of all citizens and religious communities to religious freedom must be recognized and respected as well."

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."

Matthew 18:20
"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

[CatholicCid]

I actually think I get what he's trying to get at in a little sense...

While one has their own opinion, they also have an obligation to try and reconcile their opinion with that of the Church. IE - If a Politician believes Abortion is ok, he should try to understand why he believes it's ok, understand what the Church teaches and try to reconcile his opinion with that of the Church.
However, at times, when stating a public opinion, one might have to make statements that would prevent scandal.