Katholikos Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 Christianity is a revealed religion. It was revealed by God through His Son to His Church by His Apostles. The question is, what did God reveal? To know that, we simply need to go back to early Christianity. What did the first Christians believe, who learned their doctrine not from interpreting words on a page but from the Apostles own lips or those of their disciples? The Holy Faith was "delivered once for all to the saints" (Jude 3). The New Testament came later. It confirms the teachings of the Church but was not their original source. Yes, baptism is necessary; in fact, it is essential; we can't get to heaven without it (except in certain circumstances). Yes, babies and children should be baptized. Yes, baptism is regenerative; it washes away original and actual sin; we are washed "white as snow" and our souls are filled with the Holy Spirit -- God's Own Divine Life. Through holy baptism, we are restored to the same status that Adam and Eve enjoyed in the garden before the Fall. Yes, we can lose that grace through sin, but we can be restored again to a state of grace through the Sacrament of Penance (Confession). We don't have to parse every word of the NT to know what the Scriptures mean. This approach has been used only since the 16th century and has led to thousands upon thousands of conflicting denominations with different opinions about the meaning the Bible intends to convey. All you have to do is ask the first Christians. They'll tell you. The Old Testament is not an instruction book in Judaism. It is the written expression of the religious life of the People of God called Israel. The New Testament is not an instruction book in Christianity. It is the written expression of the religious life of the People of God -- the new Israel (Gal 6:16, James 1:1), the Catholic Church -- during the first one hundred years or so after its founding by Jesus Christ. Praise and exalt Him forever in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church! ------------------------------------------ Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!
thessalonian Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) In summary, the Church was not derived from the Bible but vice versa. I would not completely agree that it is not an instruction book however as it is the creators manual on how to live our lives. There are many passages that indicate this. Without the Church however it is greatly misunderstood. Edited October 25, 2006 by thessalonian
Eutychus Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) You just wrote off the old Testament. 4000 years, poof, gone. [quote]This approach has been used only since the 16th century and has led to thousands upon thousands of conflicting denominations with different opinions about the meaning the Bible intends to convey.[/quote] So, pray tell, where do I buy the Roman Catholic OFFICIALLY APPROVED commentary on the entire bible? After all, you have had 2,000 years to produce one. One would expect that with all those theologians, and all that time, money, and expertise I should just go to Amazon and order one, right? Edited October 25, 2006 by Eutychus
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='1100545' date='Oct 24 2006, 11:59 PM'] So, pray tell, where do I buy the Roman Catholic OFFICIALLY APPROVED commentary on the entire bible? [/quote] The living Magisterium. To write it all down implies that interpretation has ended. The Scriptures will be continually unpacked until the end of time, but never fully understood. God is a better writer than that.
Eutychus Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 Understood. Got it. Just make it all up as you go along. and NEVER EVER, paint yourself in a corner, the next guy may need the "wiggle room" to do the flip flop as he DISCOVERS new and exciting meanings hidden for 2,000 years....
Thy Geekdom Come Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='1100559' date='Oct 25 2006, 12:11 AM'] Understood. Got it. Just make it all up as you go along. and NEVER EVER, paint yourself in a corner, the next guy may need the "wiggle room" to do the flip flop as he DISCOVERS new and exciting meanings hidden for 2,000 years.... [/quote] I repeat,
Akalyte Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Eutychus' post='1100545' date='Oct 24 2006, 10:59 PM'] You just wrote off the old Testament. 4000 years, poof, gone. So, pray tell, where do I buy the Roman Catholic OFFICIALLY APPROVED commentary on the entire bible? After all, you have had 2,000 years to produce one. One would expect that with all those theologians, and all that time, money, and expertise I should just go to Amazon and order one, right? [/quote] Protestants and Anti-catholics write off 2000 years of Christian history "poof gone" with every personal interpretation and every founding of a "new church". And to take a book and tell the author "my interpretation of your book is better". that's a little strange. History shows the Catholic Church gave the world the bible. You guys bit the hand that fed you. Edited October 25, 2006 by Akalyte
Eutychus Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 [quote]Protestants and Anti-catholics write off 2000 years of Christian history "poof gone" with every personal interpretation and every founding of a "new church". And to take a book and tell the author "my interpretation of your book is better". that's a little strange. [/quote] I agree with you totally. There. We NEED one autoritative COMPLETE bible INTERPRETATION, can your side produce it and can I buy it, or not? My side certainly cannot, but then WE don't make those outrageous claims of the FULLNESS OF ALL TRUTH, and the ONE TRUE AND COMPLETE CHURCH, yada yada... So, where do I get that FULLNESS OF ALL TRUTH bible commentary, that I have been searching for ever since the HS came and swept me off my feet?
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 The Church does not claim to know every application of every verse of the Scriptures. That would not be the fullness of revealed truth, but knowledge only God has claim to.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='1100575' date='Oct 25 2006, 12:36 AM'] I agree with you totally. There. We NEED one autoritative COMPLETE bible INTERPRETATION, can your side produce it and can I buy it, or not? My side certainly cannot, but then WE don't make those outrageous claims of the FULLNESS OF ALL TRUTH, and the ONE TRUE AND COMPLETE CHURCH, yada yada... So, where do I get that FULLNESS OF ALL TRUTH bible commentary, that I have been searching for ever since the HS came and swept me off my feet? [/quote] The Word of God is beyond the bounds of any book. There are too many layers and applications to write one final commentary. The Word of God is therefore interpretted as the Church finds necessary in the times the Church finds necessary. A book would be a dead thing, but the Church is living and provides a living commentary. The Church is the final authoritative commentary for Scripture.
Mercy me Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Katholikos' post='1100405' date='Oct 24 2006, 09:07 PM'] We don't have to parse every word of the NT to know what the Scriptures mean. This approach has been used only since the 16th century and has led to thousands upon thousands of conflicting denominations with different opinions about the meaning the Bible intends to convey. All you have to do is ask the first Christians. They'll tell you. The Old Testament is not an instruction book in Judaism. It is the written expression of the religious life of the People of God called Israel. [/quote] [quote name='Eutychus' post='1100545' date='Oct 24 2006, 11:59 PM'] You just wrote off the old Testament. 4000 years, poof, gone. So, pray tell, where do I buy the Roman Catholic OFFICIALLY APPROVED commentary on the entire bible? After all, you have had 2,000 years to produce one. One would expect that with all those theologians, and all that time, money, and expertise I should just go to Amazon and order one, right? [/quote] Pardon me, where did he write off the entire Old Testament? Parsing of the New Testament has led to tens of thousands of new denominations be started. I am not aware of denominations splitting off because of Old Testament issues. You don't need an "officially approved" book. Did you read his post? He saw that Christianity is a revealled religion. It came from the words of the apostles. Yes, most has been written but where do you, as a protestant come off throwing out 1600 years of tradition? Oral tradition, tradition that was passed down from the apostles, you just throw out because it was not spelled out in the canon? You can't read it so it is not real? Is that what you are saying? Protestants are more enlightened than the apostles? As for me, I am sticking with the tradition as passed down from the apostles.
kamiller42 Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='1100545' date='Oct 24 2006, 10:59 PM'] You just wrote off the old Testament. 4000 years, poof, gone. So, pray tell, where do I buy the Roman Catholic OFFICIALLY APPROVED commentary on the entire bible? After all, you have had 2,000 years to produce one. One would expect that with all those theologians, and all that time, money, and expertise I should just go to Amazon and order one, right? [/quote] Here it is.... [img]http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/1574551094.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1056521906_.jpg[/img] Available in [url="http://www.amazon.com/Catechism-Catholic-Church-Accordance-Promulgated/dp/0879739762/sr=8-3/qid=1161751136/ref=pd_bbs_3/104-4828802-7859125?ie=UTF8&s=books"]paperback for $12.97[/url] or [url="http://www.amazon.com/Catechism-Catholic-Church-Accordance-Promulgated/dp/1574551094/sr=8-6/qid=1161751136/ref=pd_bbs_6/104-4828802-7859125?ie=UTF8&s=books"]hardback for $19[/url]. There is also the [url="http://www.amazon.com/Catechism-Catholic-Church-Second-U-S/dp/0385508190/sr=8-1/qid=1161751136/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-4828802-7859125?ie=UTF8&s=books"]second edition[/url]. I am not sure of the differences though. It's a great book that provides an great understanding of the Bible text. Amazon links provided as requested.
Mateo el Feo Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='1100575' date='Oct 25 2006, 12:36 AM']We NEED one autoritative COMPLETE bible INTERPRETATION, can your side produce it and can I buy it, or not? My side certainly cannot, but then WE don't make those outrageous claims of the FULLNESS OF ALL TRUTH, and the ONE TRUE AND COMPLETE CHURCH, yada yada... So, where do I get that FULLNESS OF ALL TRUTH bible commentary, that I have been searching for ever since the HS came and swept me off my feet?[/quote]Our Lord Himself didn't even leave the Apostles with a New Testament, let alone an all-inclusive commentary on Holy Scriptures. Yet, I'm sure this fact hasn't led you to shop for a new savior. It is no more valid to use this "need" as a reason to go church-shopping.
KnightofChrist Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Katholikos' post='1100405' date='Oct 24 2006, 07:07 PM'] The Old Testament is not an instruction book in Judaism. It is the written expression of the religious life of the People of God called Israel. The New Testament is not an instruction book in Christianity. It is the written expression of the religious life of the People of God -- the new Israel (Gal 6:16, James 1:1), the Catholic Church -- during the first one hundred years or so after its founding by Jesus Christ. [/quote] I believe I disagree, both the new and old testaments were written by holy men instructed by God to write down the inspired "word of God." Mother Church was founded by Christ to instruct and teach all of the people of the world the salvation of Christ. The New and Old testaments are instruction books, because Mother Church uses them to instruct and teach us how to live, and please God. What do you mean by instruction, "bible alone"? Or the Bible is in no way a book of instruction?
Anomaly Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='1100575' date='Oct 24 2006, 10:36 PM'] I agree with you totally. There. We NEED one autoritative COMPLETE bible INTERPRETATION, can your side produce it and can I buy it, or not? My side certainly cannot, but then WE don't make those outrageous claims of the FULLNESS OF ALL TRUTH, and the ONE TRUE AND COMPLETE CHURCH, yada yada... So, where do I get that FULLNESS OF ALL TRUTH bible commentary, that I have been searching for ever since the HS came and swept me off my feet? [/quote] I had to laugh at this. Euty, you fell into the same trap that the Catholics do. You believe there just HAS to be some book that you can read, make dog-eared, highlight, and reference that is complete in DETAIL for every single one of your possible questions. God is about a relationship, not a rule book that can be bought for $12.97. A Church organization and athenticated and approved commentaries are AIDS to help with the relationship, not concrete rule books that will cover every single imaginable circumstance. That is where the relationship comes in. OMG, the irony of Euty wanting an infallible document that would cover everything.
Katholikos Posted October 25, 2006 Author Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='thessalonian' post='1100418' date='Oct 24 2006, 08:25 PM'] In summary, the Church was not derived from the Bible but vice versa. I would not completely agree that it is not an instruction book however as it is the creators manual on how to live our lives. There are many passages that indicate this. Without the Church however it is greatly misunderstood. [/quote]God provided the means of transmission of His Truth through the ages by giving the apostles and their successors, the bishops, authority to teach in His name and by promising to be with them forever. The teaching of the apostles and of the apostolic churches continues to this day, and will continue to the end of time. We learn our Faith -- doctrine -- from the the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. We read the Scriptures to apply them to our lives. I say again: [u]The Bible is not an instruction book in Christianity[/u]. It does not tell us what to do in order to be saved, how baptism should be administered, what baptism does or not do to the soul, whether babies should or should not be baptized, how often we should gather together for worship and on what day, how our worship service should be structured, how often we should receive Communion -- if at all, how to get married, and on and on. Protestants have [i][b]deduced[/b][/i] what they think they should be believe from what is written in the NT. They draw [b][i]inferences [/i] [/b] about what to believe from the NT because the instructions are not there. The NT was not meant to be an instruction book. It was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics in the heart of the teaching Church. When it was taken out of that context in the 16th century and made to stand alone, the result is thousands of conflicting and competing Protestant denominations that disagree with every other denomination in one or more doctrines or practices, and all claim to teach the truth about what they Bible says. Oy vey! The Catholic Church is not a product of the Bible. The Bible is a product of the Catholic Church, produced under the guidence of the Holy Spirit, who will guide the Church forever. Christ will be with the Church forever. We have His Word on that. The Church is the Mother of the Scriptures, not the Daughter. Likos former Southern Baptist, agnostic, atheist ------------------------------------------------ Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!
Katholikos Posted October 25, 2006 Author Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1100647' date='Oct 25 2006, 01:37 AM'] I believe I disagree, both the new and old testaments were written by holy men instructed by God to write down the inspired "word of God." Mother Church was founded by Christ to instruct and teach all of the people of the world the salvation of Christ. The New and Old testaments are instruction books, because Mother Church uses them to instruct and teach us how to live, and please God. What do you mean by instruction, "bible alone"? Or the Bible is in no way a book of instruction? [/quote]I said, [u]the Bible is not an instruction book (a "what-to- believe-and-how-to-put-it-into-practice" book) on the Christian religion[/u]. In the absence of instructions, Protestants have deduced or inferred what is to be believed and taught, with disastrous consequences. ----------------------------------------- Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!
thessalonian Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) Kathlicos, I am not sure what distintion you are trying to make. The scriptures do teach or the Catechism is wrong in many places such as this. 7: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1114 (222 bytes ) preview document matches 4 "[b]Adhering to the teaching of the Holy Scriptures[/b], to the apostolic traditions, and to the consensus . of the Fathers," we profess that "the sacraments of the 16: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 117 (756 bytes ) preview document matches in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written[b] "for our instruction[/b]". 3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can URL: [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/117.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/117.htm[/url] Most certainly Sola Scriptura is in error but lets not go too far the other way. 2Tim.3 [16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, Most certainly the scriptures are to be understood in the context of the Church and they are a product of the Church but they go hand in hand with sacred oral tradition to pass along the teachings of Jesus Christ. That after all is what the word "Gospel" means and there are four GOSPELS in scripture. They teach the plan of salvation. Maybe I am missing something in your posts? Edited October 25, 2006 by thessalonian
Anomaly Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 Perhaps, Kath is saying that Scripture is an inerrant and infallible "Outline" which makes an earthly athority necessry, while Euty believes that Scripture has all the "Details" as well, which makes a 'Catechism' and Church athority superfluous.
thessalonian Posted October 25, 2006 Posted October 25, 2006 Outline is not the word I would use but your probably close to his point. It's more like if my wife tells me to go to the store and get milk, it's not an outline but there is much involved that simply doesn't need to be spoken among those who think alike. I know where the store is and have a set of car keys etc. If someone comes in to our home and we tell them to go get milk there is much more explanation needed in between the lines.
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