The "charismatic Movement" Within The Church..

[popestpiusx]

I hate it.

[Tink]

[color="#009900"]I am saying this with all possible charity, and I pray this is taken as a suggestion from someone who has experienced massive amounts of spiritual oppression and warfare. I believe that those who find themselves seriously opposed to the charismatic movement and even think it to be 'gravely disordered,' or who find themselves troubled by or ill at ease with the events taking place at Steubenville, have had their perceptions manipulated in some way by Satan. To have such a strong aversion or, in some cases, [i]hatred[/i] toward these things that have obviously brought many to the Church and bridged the gap between structure and spirit is indicative of something very strong. I feel very unsettled as I'm reading this thread, and though I cannot cite Scripture or Church documents to back up this notion, I really do think many people should take this to prayer and possibly to a priest who specializes in spiritual warfare. I find that those who are so vehemently opposed to the charismatic movement are not filled with love or joy, but bitterness, hypercritical attitudes, and cynicism. The Evil one brings discord and sadness, but the hand of the Lord works with peace and light. So I don't know, pray about that.

And if anyone on here who is thoroughly educated in spiritual warfare and oppression finds a problem with what I've posted, feel free to correct me. [/color]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1101256' date='Oct 25 2006, 11:39 PM']
Well, it seems from various posts and what not that the Charasmatic Movement has done what it suppose to do. It brought you closer, made you on fire for your faith, and now you appreciate and love the traditions of Catholicism.

With all that it has done, why is it under fire if it attracts the young, gets them riled up for their faith, and then they grow more in the Spirit and appreciate tradition?
[/quote]
Because people are uncomfortable with what is different and it is quite different from what most of us are used to. It also can produce a spiritually unhealthy emphasis on gifts and consolations, rather than on Christ Himself and on giving Him everything...however, I have always maintained that every movement within the Church has its own risks.

[Kosh]

each to his own. I don't think it's intrinsically wrong or evil, I just am a traditionalist in this aspect.

[Oik]

We don't have the Charismatic movement or Charismatic renewal in the Eastern Chucrch. The Eastern Church is Charismatic in the true sense, being that it draws people in. This is not what the 1960's phenomena traced back to Duquesne University is.

I can honestly say that I don't even know what the Charismatic movement is anymore. Being a student at Franciscan University, what I see is Contemporary Mass setting of the Pauline Missal, with praise and worship music (invented by Protestants).

The whole 'resting in the Spirit' is contrived.

People in the movement are coached into its methods.

That being said, It's not bad. It's Catholic and orthodox.

Overall though, the Church has a multiplicity of devotions and I think some people (one both sides) forget that thiers is not the best and/or only one.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Oik' post='1101325' date='Oct 25 2006, 11:10 PM']
Overall though, the Church has a multiplicity of devotions and I think some people (one both sides) forget that thiers is not the best and/or only one.
[/quote] You know, that attitude can get you burned at the stake. There HAS to be the One and Only BEST WAY in EVERYTHING Catholic.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1101204' date='Oct 25 2006, 10:07 PM']
I can see a debate coming... and I'm sure a certain moderator will just warn me again, maybe for being too Catholic and making PM's members look too extreme or unecumenical to protestant visitors or something like that. But don't worry- I'm not afraid to defend the Faith. Viva Cristo Rey!
[/quote]
You won't be warned for being too Catholic. You may be warned for lack of charity in dealing with other Catholics who have the backing of the Church.

On the matter of your position being "too Catholic," there is certainly no such thing as "too Catholic," but there is such a thing as "too limited in Catholic worldview." I don't care much personally for the charismatic movement, but I've known too many charismatics and too many good fruits from the movement to give it broadbrush strokes like "not Catholic." Careful you don't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit in your attempt to be perfect.

God bless,

Micah

[LuchaporElRey21]

Desert makes a good point. But still, I am worried about liturgical abuses.

[stbernardLT]

I do not have a charismatic spirituality, but if it is done within the guidelines of the church, we should not have problem with it. As long as the charismatic gifts are used for the building up a of the church and not self-edification, I think it is a good thing.

As far as Stuebenville Conferences go. Steubenville South no longer has music during adoration, but the charismatic gifts are still manifested among the participants. It is awesome to see such surrender in the presence of Jesus (not that this has to be charismatic).

Those of you who don't acknowledge the Charismatic movement, what do you say about the Charismatic gifts. They are officially listed by the church. Although they are the least of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (no sanctifying grace needed), they are still gifts of the Spirit.

[Oik]

StbernardLT,

Funny you should mention the Charismatic gifts. Since they are mentioned in the scriptures, then why is there a Charismatic movement/renewal at all?

Where did the Charismatic gifts go and when did they leave?

Seems a bit presumptious to me. The Holy Spirit only used one specific andf very recent 'movement' to give gifts that we already given at Baptism? Did Catholics stop recieving the Charismatic gifts for a certain aount of time in history. If so, sounds like a lot of Catholics weren't properly Baptised.


OR

We don't have the Charismatic movement in the Eastern Churches but we still have the Charismatic gifts, and always have.


Do you see the problem here? The Charismatic movement makes a claim to focus on the activiation or manifestation of gifts already given and already historically manifested...before the movemnet/renewal even existed.

Again, what is the point then?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Oik' post='1101875' date='Oct 26 2006, 05:32 PM']Funny you should mention the Charismatic gifts. Since they are mentioned in the scriptures, then why is there a Charismatic movement/renewal at all?[/quote]
So that we can be renewed in our charisms.

Why do we renew our Baptismal vows? Did our original vows not take? Of course they did. But we want to renew and reinvigorate those vows. That is the essence of the Charismatic renewal, as understood and approved by the Church, a renewal of the outpouring of charisms, and the expression of these charisms with faith and joy.

There are many ways to express our charisms, of course. You don't have to like "praise and worship" music. But this is one way that some people have expressed their charisms, to renew the Church through the manifestation of charisms in our lives of prayer.

As Pope John Paul II told us, listen to what the Spirit is telling to the Churches. He encourages new devotions and spiritual paths in every age. That leads to a healthy diversity within the Church.

[Resurrexi]

I think the modern liturigcally abusive movement calling itself 'charismatic' came from hell and has done nothing but lead souls astray and make them commit many mortal sins which in turn make them servants of Satan until they confess their sins and are absolved.

[tojo]

I would like to mention that my home parish, is a charismatic parish (officially, by diocesan mandate). It frequently comes under fire from Catholics in nearby parishes, not for being too charismatic, but for being too conservative, too traditional, too orthodox, and too concerned about liturgical correctness in the Mass.

We also have the highest number of vocations per capita in the Diocese. We produce sisters, brothers, priests, and deacons, We have more deacons than any parish in the diocese, the Bishop has began transferring our deacons to serve other parishes because we have so many ordained, and so many studying for the deaconate.

Unlike at other nearby parishes, I frequently hear thomilies on the Real Presence, the Saints, Mary, the Bible, Church Authority, etc. The general intercessions pray for and end to abortion (specifically, by name) every week. Every week, we pray that Catholics would "follow the Churches teaching on marriage and family life" (not contracept, encoded for children).

There is a huge youth group that meet twice weekly. There are long confessional lines before the Lifeteen Mass (and before every mass).

Virtually everyone makes a sign of reverence when receiving the Eucharist (something lacking among many at other nearby parishes, even the better ones. many people genuflect before receiving, and aren't persecute for doing so (they are at other nearby parishes).

There are numerous lay groups. Prayer meetings, bible studies, rosary groups, etc. We are the only parish in the area with a perpetual adoration chapel. We began it when our building was finished 5 years ago. At that time we had less than 500 families (now we have over 700, another testimony about this church) and our diocese requires two scheduled adorers at all times, and we get them!

Our RCIA classes are just as big as parishes that are 2 or 3 times bigger than ours.

We frequently say the Kyrie in Greek, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei in Latin, we don't use gender inclusive language (many local parishes do, liberal region) in the Mass. We don't hold hands during the our father, we always kneel during the consecration and during the "Lord I am not worthy." We only have altar boys, since we have plenty who want to do it.

I could go on and on....

But this is just some highlights of fruits you can know many charismatic Catholics by.

[Oik]

Tomasio127,

How blessed is God! It sounds like you have a wonderful Church community.

[Era Might]

Oik,

I deleted your post by accident, I must have hit edit your post instead of add a new post. I apologize.

[quote]A renewal was not necessary.[/quote]
The Vicars of Christ have believed otherwise. Here's the text of one message Pope John Paul II gave to the International Council for Catholic Charismatic Renewal in 1992:

[quote]Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

1. In the joy and peace of the Holy Spirit I welcome the Council of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Office. As you celebrate the twenty-fifth anniversary of the beginning of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I willingly join you in giving praise to God for the many fruits which it has borne in the life of the Church. [b]The emergence of the Renewal following the Second Vatican Council was a particular gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church.

It was a sign of a desire on the part of many Catholics to live more fully their Baptismal dignity and vocation as adopted sons and daughters of the Father, to know the redeeming power of Christ our Savior in a more intense experience of individual and group prayer, and to follow the teaching of the Scriptures by reading them in the light of the same Spirit who inspired their writing. Certainly one of the most important results of this spiritual reawakening has been that increased thirst for holiness which is seen in the lives of individuals and in the whole Church.[/b]

At the end of this Second Millennium, the Church needs more than ever to turn in confidence and hope to the Holy Spirit, who unceasingly draws believers into the Trinitarian communion of love, builds up their visible unity in the one Body of Christ, and sends them forth on mission in obedience to the mandate entrusted to the Apostles by the Risen Christ. We must be convinced that a deepening awareness of the Person and work of the Holy Spirit responds to the needs of our times, for the Spirit "is at the center of the Christian faith and is the source and dynamic power of the Church's renewal" (Dominum et Vivificantem, 2). Indeed, the Holy Spirit is the "principle agent of the Church's mission" (Redemptoris Missio, 21), sustaining and guiding the efforts to bring the graces of Pentecost to all people.

2. Since the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given for the building up of the Church, you, as leaders of the Charismatic Renewal, are challenged to seek increasingly effective ways in which the various groups you represent can manifest their complete communion of mind and heart with the Apostolic See and the College of Bishops, and cooperate ever more fruitfully in the Church's mission in the world. On the international level, your Office's close links with its Episcopal Advisor, Bishop Paul Cordes, and the coordination of Ecclesial Movements and Associations provided by the Pontifical Council of the Laity, are important means of fostering such cooperation, which is so essential for the prudent stewardship of the Spirit's manifold gifts. Only in this way will the renewal truly serve its ecclesial purpose, helping to ensure that "the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God" [Col. 2:19].

3. [b]At this moment in the Church's history, the Charismatic Renewal can play a significant role in promoting the much-needed defense of Christian life in societies where secularism and materialism have weakend many people's ability to respond to the Spirit and to discern God's loving call. Your contribution to the re-evangelization of society will be made in the first place by personal witness to the indwelling Spirit and by showing forth His presence through works of holiness and solidarity. "The witness of a Christian life is the first and irreplaceable form of mission" (Redemptoris Missio, 42). What more effective means can there be for drawing those who have lost their spiritual bearings towards that truth which alone can calm the restlessness of the human heart than the living example of fervent Christian believers? To bear witness is to be a powerful leaven among people who perhaps do not fully recognize the value of the salvation that only Jesus Christ can offer. [/b]

4. The Charismatic Renewal can also help foster the growth of a solid spiritual life based on the Holy Spirit's power at work in the Church, in the richness of her Tradition, and particularly in her celebration of the Sacraments. Frequent reception of the Eucharist and regular use of the Sacrament of Penance are essential for a genuine life in the Holy Spirit, for these are the means which Christ himself has given us to restore and sustain the Spirit's gift of grace. Since the ways of the Spirit always lead to Christ and His Church, since it is the Spirit Himself who guides those He has established as Bishops to care for the Church of God (cf. Acts 20:28), there can be no conflict between the fidelity to the Spirit and fidelity to the Church and her Magisterium. Whatever shape the Charismatic Renewal takes - in prayer groups, in covenant communities, in communities of life and service - the sign of its spiritual fruitfulness will always be a strengthening of communion with the universal Church and the local Churches. Your role as a coordinating organization is to help all these various facets of the Renewal to work together in union with the Pastors of the Church for the good of the whole Body. At the same time, the deepening of your Catholic identity by drawing from the spiritual wealth of the Catholic Tradition is an irreplaceable part of your contribution to genuine ecumenical dialogue which, fostered by the Holy Spirit, must lead to the perfection of "fellowship in unity: in the confession of one faith, in the common celebration of divine worship and in the fraternal harmony of the family of God" (Unitatis Redintegratio, 2).

5. Dear friends, at the beginning of this Lenten season, I pray that your work will contribute to the growth of the Church, in fidelity to the Lord's will and to the mission which she has received. I commend all of you to the loving intercession of Mary, Mother of the Church, who "through the same faith which makes her blessed ..., is present in the Church's mission, present in the Church's work of introducing into the world the Kingdom of her Son" (Redemptoris Mater, 28). May her prayers accompany those who strive to extend the Kingdom of Christ in obedience to the prompting of His Holy Spirit. To all of you I cordially impart my Apostolic Blessing.[/quote]

[Oik]

Era,

My comment in which I used the word 'renewal' specfically applied to the Charismatic renewal.

My point is that the Charismatic renewal is not necessary. The Charismatic renewal was not necessary. It is not mandated by the Holy Spirit. Rather, it draws from an already existing spirituality.

[quote]Whatever shape the Charismatic Renewal takes - in prayer groups, in covenant communities, in communities of life and service - the sign of its spiritual fruitfulness will always be a strengthening of communion with the universal Church and the local Churches. Your role as a coordinating organization is to help all these various facets of the Renewal to work together in union with the Pastors of the Church for the good of the whole Body. [/quote]

The letter is an exhortation to this specific group. It recognizes thier work and gives them an idea of what effect they CAN have.

Besides, this is the ONLY mention documented in this way. Not very prominent.



My only point is this:

The Eastern Churches do not have a Charismatic movement and for the Western Churches, the Charismatic movement is an unrequired and optional form of orthodox spirituality that's a legitimate, though modern development in the Western Church.

[LuchaporElRey21]

Tomasio, where is your parish again? I want to transfer! lol

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1101947' date='Oct 26 2006, 06:58 PM']
I think the modern liturigcally abusive movement calling itself 'charismatic' came from hell and has done nothing but lead souls astray and make them commit many mortal sins which in turn make them servants of Satan until they confess their sins and are absolved.
[/quote]
What's nice is just because you think so, doesn't make it so.

[Mercy me]

I personally am grateful for the Charismatic movement because I have seen so many lives touched and transformed by it my own included. There is no doubt that the Holy Spirit is active in this movement. I think that it is also interesting to read how many people here were touched by it in profound ways and yet are conservative and orthodox. The fruits of the renewal are plentiful.

Just as a general observation, it is human nature to fear what we do not understand. Perhaps there is a little of this involved in the attitudes of so many towards the Charismatic Renewal.

[MilesChristi]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1101947' date='Oct 26 2006, 07:58 PM']
I think the modern liturigcally abusive movement calling itself 'charismatic' came from hell and has done nothing but lead souls astray and make them commit many mortal sins which in turn make them servants of Satan until they confess their sins and are absolved.
[/quote]

You might want to be careful, lest you blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

I'm not formally involved in the charismatic movement itself, but I've come in contact with it enough during my travels to see a lot of good fruit - great trust and love for the Lord, a deep reverence for the Holy Eucharist, and zeal for actively spreading the gospel. Most of all, I've been impressed by the ecstatic joy and love which transfigures charismatic communities. The witness of their love for each other put me to shame.