Chaput: Examine Abortion Stances

[cmotherofpirl]

Chaput: Examine abortion stances
By Eric Gorski
Denver Post Staff Writer
Article Last Updated:10/23/2006 10:17:23 PM MDT


With two Catholics vying for the state's top elected office, Denver Archbishop Charles Chaput avoided critiquing either candidate in an interview Monday but made clear that abortion should be a "foundational" issue for Catholic voters.

The shepherd of 385,000 registered Catholics in northern Colorado chose his words carefully in discussing the governor's race, noting the archdiocese is barred by law from getting involved in candidate races.

But Chaput did say a position allowing the fewest exceptions to abortion tracks closer to church teaching that the procedure is always wrong.

Republican nominee Bob Beauprez opposes legalized abortion except when the mother's life is endangered while Democrat Bill Ritter opposes abortion except in cases of rape, incest, risk to the mother's life and fetal anomalies.

"We expect that Catholics should take seriously the teachings of the church regarding our responsibilities for society - that we be good citizens, we vote, that we expect Catholics who run for office would do all they can to protect the dignity of every individual and make decisions for the common good," Chaput said.

Chaput has gained a national reputation for stating Catholic politicians should "act Catholic," and that Catholics should vote their faith at the ballot box.

The Colorado Catholic Conference has mailed out a flier titled "Moral Principles for Catholic Voters" and aired a radio ad urging Catholics to vote. The Denver archdiocese donated $20,000 to a campaign to constitutionally define marriage as between one man and one woman, according to state election records.

The state's three bishops came out Monday in support of an amendment to raise Colorado's minimum wage. And over the weekend, a letter was read at Masses supporting the marriage amendment and opposing a domestic partnerships measure.

On the governor's race, Chaput said he is pleased by some things he hears and worried about others, but wouldn't elaborate. He said it's "important that people who claim to be Catholic be Catholic on all issues, not just some of them."

However, he said abortion is foundational because "it deals with the basic human right, the right to life." On other issues, such as illegal immigration, Catholics can disagree, he said.

"All people are supposed to have a respect for the immigrants and their dignity and a commitment to the common good," Chaput said. "But working that out with policy, there's some flexibility."

Chaput declined to discuss either candidate's abortion stance.

Ritter campaign spokesman Evan Dreyer said Ritter splits from the church when warranted, such as when he incorporated condom education into health care while working as a missionary in Africa.

"Bill's faith informs in a very deep way his public policy decisions," Dreyer said. "At times those two things are compatible and in sync, and at times they are not. And when they are not, Bill struggles. But he always will do the right thing."

Beauprez campaign manager John Marshall said Beauprez has clearly articulated his positions on abortion and on traditional marriage, siding with the church supporting the marriage amendment, which Ritter opposes.

"I do think it's important to match up what the archbishop is saying with the two candidates," Marshall said. "Just because they say they're Catholic doesn't mean their stances necessarily match up with what they're saying."

[Anomaly]

I laude the bishops for making a (weak) statement regarding the morality of Abortion, but it's outside their realm of expertise (minimum wage). It's also a shame that they equivocate the importance of minimum wage with abortion.

I take some of that back.
If you go to the Archbishop's website, and the Colorado Catholic Conference website, it's difficult to find anything regarding abortion. The document, "Moral Principles for Catholic Voters" is linked at the bottom of the page and is not referenced at all on the Archbishops site.

Prominent, though, is Minimum Wage discussion, and (thankfully) comments on marriage.

If one CAN find the MPforC document and read it through to the lower paragraphs, it's clear that abortion for euthanasia is wrong. What's not clear, is the bishop's opinion on the difference between the two candidates' positions on abortion, leaving a huge gray question mark.

Why is it more effort, verbage, and documents are clear on minimum wage, but not abortion?

Edited October 26, 2006 by Anomaly

[cmotherofpirl]

I would think because by now everyone should know the Catholic churchs stance on abortion, but not everyone would about minimun wage. Even economists argue about increasing the min wage.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1101486' date='Oct 26 2006, 10:46 AM']
I would think because by now everyone should know the Catholic churchs stance on abortion, but not everyone would about minimun wage. Even economists argue about increasing the min wage.[/quote]Yeah, right. Ted Kennedy and John Kerry are very clear on promoting the Catholic Church's stance on abortion. They make it very clear to the Catholics they trick into voting for them...
There is no confusion, let's not question the Princes.

Edited October 26, 2006 by Anomaly

[thessalonian]

[quote]It's also a shame that they equivocate the importance of minimum wage with abortion.[/quote]

Perhaps you could show where he did this. Coming out in favor of a minimum wage in no way says abortion = minimum wage in importance. Chaput is not the slightest bit weak on abortion. The Bishops have condemned the views of Kerry and Kenedy. Kerry and Kenedy are not the Magesterium and so if someone gets the Catholic view on anything from them and takes it as official they are taking a big chance. People do not vote for candidates because they are clones of their own views. Many Catholics know of these men's position on these issues and vote for them regardless, because they don't place a high enough value on unborn life. Your chidings are not justified.

Edited October 26, 2006 by thessalonian

[Anomaly]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1101521' date='Oct 26 2006, 11:43 AM']
Perhaps you could show where he did this. Coming out in favor of a minimum wage in no way says abortion = minimum wage in importance. Chaput is not the slightest bit weak on abortion. The Bishops have condemned the views of Kerry and Kenedy. Kerry and Kenedy are not the Magesterium and so if someone gets the Catholic view on anything from them and takes it as official they are taking a big chance.
[/quote]
My edit changed that and I say they make minimum wage MORE important than abortion.
Go visit the site for the Archbishop and Catholic Conference and see what documents are prominent or non-existent. Don't just take my word for it.
If one finds 5 or 6 docuements and Official Statements on minimum wage and marriage, but has to search for the one on abortion (written in September and I knew it HAD to be available) what conclusion am I supposed to draw? There is a definite LACK of clear statements regarding the abortion issue other than the one document that is written to explain principles but does not examine the professed views of the two candidates in light of Catholic Doctrine. What's prominent and written about and defended though, is minimum wage and marriage.

My chiding is very justified. The Catholic congregation have the example of the Bishops not putting a high emphasis on the abortion issue, but instead, write much more and explain much more, the issues of minimum wage and marriage. Go figger.

Edited October 26, 2006 by Anomaly

[thessalonian]

So determing how the Catholic Church stands is about tallying up the number of documents? I get 226 documents that mention minimum wage when I search the site and 876 speaking about abortion if that is a part of your criteria. Now perhaps you would like to go through all these documents for me and see if the Churches position is clear. It sure is to me. Personally you sound like someone who is bitter toward the Church and looking for reasons to stay out of her even though you know it is the Church the Apostles laid down, guided by the Holy Spirit.

Of late it seems the Bishops have felt the need to articulate in WRITING the position of the Bishops on minmum wage. They SPEAK plenty regarding abortion and every time there is an abortion bill before the senate I have heard the view of the Church spoken. Perhaps you have ears that do not hear or hear selectively. Locally in the parishes I have atteneded and by my bishop and others I have heard, abortion is spoken of far more than the minimum wage.

Edited October 26, 2006 by thessalonian

[Anomaly]

thess,
Lay off with your opinion of what my motives are. That's just rude and not really germaine.

Read my posts. Did I stutter? I'm not debating what is the "Church's" position, I'm making an observation about what these particular Bishops have felt is more important in instructing how American voters should evaluate their candidates and legislation. I refrained from cheap shots just to lambast Catholics, including these Bishops.

[thessalonian]

Your posts are cheap shots on the stance of the Bishops. Your observations are based on prejudice with very simplistic critera to support your pre-concieved notions to make your judgements. It is ridiculous to say that the US Bishops place more importance on minimum wage.

By the way I would say "did I stutter" is a rude comment if we're pointing fingers at rudeness.

I notice you ignored my statictical FACTS regarding the USSCB.org website.

Edited October 26, 2006 by thessalonian

[Anomaly]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1101623' date='Oct 26 2006, 01:38 PM']
Your posts are cheap shots. Your observations are based on prejudice with very simplistic critera to support your pre-concieved notions to make your judgements. It is ridiculous to say that the US Bishops place more importance on minimum wage.

By the way I would say "did I stutter" is a rude comment if we're pointing fingers at rudeness.
[/quote]
"Did I stutter" is humor to get you to read what I acutally say and don't say in my posts instead of twisting things for you to jump on me. How many ways do I have to say I'm addressing this article, these Bishops, not all the US Bishops?
The point I made is that these Bishops are putting more effort into supporting minimum wage (cheap shot so you can tell the difference> supporting 'Window' legislation regarding the sex-abuse lawsuits) then spent educating the Catholic voter about abortion. Ask the average "Catholic" voter which of these two candidates' positions on abortion are more in line with Catholic teachings.
(cheap shot> Your posts slamming me are just your way of showing what a good and faithful Catholic you are and I'm not and to fulfill your pre-concieved notions and your judgements.)
Considering the election is just a few weeks away and you have seemingly two viable candidates, the Bishops were asked about both candidates who purport to be Catholic, wouldn't it make sense to clearly describe and discuss how these two positions comply with or don't comply with Catholic teaching?

[thessalonian]

That's odd. I did a search for documents with the word "abortion" and "excommunication" in them and got 862. I did a search for "minimum wage" and excommunication in them and got a goose egg. That kind of refutes your statistics dude.

[Anomaly]

[quote]That's odd. I did a search for documents with the word "abortion" and "excommunication" in them and got 862. I did a search for "minimum wage" and excommunication in them and got a goose egg. That kind of refutes your statistics dude.
[/quote]
Dude,
Go to the websites of the 3 Bishops, Archbishp, and the Colorado Council and count up the documents under "News" or the "(Arch)Bishops" Corner, or News Articles, etc. Good job at trying to twist things around.

Edit to add:
Considering your proclivity to stir in irrelevant 'uncharitable points', I'll drop this thread. I made my point and you made yours. I'm not emotionally invested in having to be right. [LOL]

Edited October 26, 2006 by Anomaly

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1101642' date='Oct 26 2006, 03:00 PM']
Dude,
Go to the websites of the 3 Bishops, Archbishp, and the Colorado Council and count up the documents under "News" or the "(Arch)Bishops" Corner, or News Articles, etc. Good job at trying to twist things around.

Edit to add:
Considering your proclivity to stir in irrelevant 'uncharitable points', I'll drop this thread. I made my point and you made yours. I'm not emotionally invested in having to be right. [LOL]
[/quote]

I took my relevancy cue from you Dude. Chaput makes it quite clear to his flock where he stands on abortion if you know anything about the man. So what if minimum wage has been in the news more recently speaking of relevancy.

websearch for Chaput and abotion 54,000 hits.
websearch for Chaput and "minimum wage" 650 hits.

Edited October 26, 2006 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

I went to the archdiocse of denver site and got over 18 pages of hits (618) for abortion. 2 for minmimum wage (15 hit). But of course this won't change your stance. Your wrong. That's all there is to it.

Edited October 26, 2006 by thessalonian

[Era Might]

Archbishop Chaput is a great Bishop.

[thessalonian]

Perhaps you can find me an article like this telling those who don't support minmum wage that they cannot recieve communion.

[url="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0514-09.htm"]http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0514-09.htm[/url]

The bishop of Colorado's second-largest Roman Catholic diocese has issued a pastoral letter saying Catholics cannot receive Communion if they vote for politicians who support abortion rights, stem-cell research, euthanasia or gay marriage.

I am sure you are watching. Evidently you want to rant about how you are mistreated rather than provide supporting evidence of which so far you have given us hand waving and apparently hoped that noone would check out your accusations against chaput.

Edited October 26, 2006 by thessalonian

[Anomaly]

I went to Chaput's site.
Sigh.
Let’s go to Archbishop Chaput’s website.
Click on “Archbishop’s Writings and Discourses”, “Newspaper Columns”
In mass media and courts, some religions less equal than others
The Foals Promise of Window Legilsation (sex abuse)
Dynamic Speakers to make Respect Life month time of nourishment, zea
Musharraf must look in mirror
Colorado state marriage Amendment 43 urgently needs your support (marriage)
The ‘Year of the Catholic School’: a chance to reflect on the meaning of education
Defending the rights, beliefs and resources of Colorado Catholics can be a hard struggle (sex abuse)
Latinos are natural allies of the US and a natural force for renwing
In Christian-Muslim relations, peace not served by ignoring history
Prayer for peace in the Middle East crucial as new violence erupts
How we act on public policy will shape Colorado’s future (immigrants and marriage)
The future of marriage and family life depnds on us acting now (marriage and LATE TERM ABORTION)
As Catholics, we can draw some key lessons from 2006 Assembly session (sex abuse)
HB1090 made worse by Senate actions (sex abuse)
Permanent deacons offer unique witness to laity, priests and bishops
Easter: the great feast of hope
Catholic voice critical on immigration reform, statute of limitations bills
The task remaining: Amend house Bill 1090 and oppose Senate Bill 143 (sex abuse)
God remakes the world through our living witness of faith
‘BodyWorlds 2’ a reiminder for lent that Chistianity is incrnational
Senate Bill 143: Sorting through the evasions (sex abuse)
HB 1088, HB 1090, SB 143 bills are bad public policy, bad laws (sex abuse)
A look at language – and marriage.
PASTORAL LETTERS
Your Youth is Renewed Like the Eagle’s
Evangelization: Good News of Great Joy
Of Human Life (marriage)
Penance: River of Mercy
The Priesthood: As Christ Loved the Church
OFFICIAL STATEMENTS
Archbiship Chaput comments on appointment of Cardinal Ratzinger as Pope
A.C. reflects on the passing of the late Pope John Pall II
The death of Terri Schiavo
4 more then:
Partial-birth abortion (Nov. 5, 2003)
And many more.
ADDRESSES
10 in 2005 and 2006. Not one addressing abortion.
Do I need to do the same for each of the Bishops? (I went to all of their sites already. One had an article)

Again. I am talking specifically regarding what these Bishops, Archbiship, and Confrence have or have not said regarding the upcoming elections and the choice between these two Catholics.
It's not that they don't speak about political issues as you can see from the topics.

Edit to add:
Go to the Social Issues link. You will get 4 articles, none of which address how to evaluate a candidates position on abortion when voting.

EDIT TO ADD:
Now, let’s go to the Colorado Catholic Confrence for a list of their topics:

Vote!
Colorado State Marriage Amendment 43 Urgently Needs Your Support
Colorado bishops support Amendment 42: An increase in Colorado’s Minimum Wage
Amendment 43 and Referendum 1 (on marriage)
Amendment 43 – Vote YES to Portect Marriage
Link:www.cofamily (on marriage)
Link: www.marriageforcolorado
Refendum 1 – Vote NO to Protect Marriage
Finally:
MORAL PINCIPLES FOR CATHOLIC VOTERS
Catholic Confernce Urges Participation in the Election Process
LINK to radio ad about ‘Family Values and Traditional Marriage’
Catholic Conference Press Release on Ballot Signatures
Colorado Bishos Call for Greater Understanding of Migrant Issues.

Edited October 26, 2006 by Anomaly

[thessalonian]

Double sigh.

Ah yes, the damning evidence that Chaput is soft on abortion and that Minimum Wage is a more compelling issue for him. He hasn't written an article lately with the wording you would like to see on the subject. The kind of rational and investigation that brings about writings such as "Hitler's Pope" and "The Da Vinci Code". Well done Anomoly! Oh such wisdom Anom. Should we wonder where the phrase "brood of vipers" comes from?

Once again show me where it says that voting against the minimum wage is an excommunicable offense. Show me where he excludes one from the Eucharist who does not vote in favor of a minimum wage. You have nothing but some handwaving about what you think he should be writing. But then your not in his shoes. As EM says Chaput is a solid bishop especially against abortion and you are bearing false witness against him. But then that is what anti-catholics do. That commandment means little.

Edited October 26, 2006 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

I guess these Sept 2006 statements don't count for anything with you.

“When people claim they’re Catholic but do nothing in the public square to advance the Christian understanding of each human person’s dignity, they’re deceiving themselves and other people -- but they’re not fooling God,” the archbishop said, naming areas of concern to Catholics, such as embryonic stem-cell research, abortion, assisted suicide, marriage, immigration, poverty and the disabled.

“We need to drill it into our heads that defending the sanctity of the human person and serving the common good can’t be separated,” he said. “Stuffing our Catholic faith in a closet when we enter the public square or join a public debate isn’t good manners, and it isn’t political courtesy. It’s cowardice. And we’ll be judged for that cowardice by the God who created us.”

Chaput has said so much on abortion that anyone who mistakes his view is pretty dense. Anyone who accuses him of being soft on abortion is a liar.

Edited October 26, 2006 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

Funny how you never went to the Respect Life link.

[url="http://www.archden.org/archbishop-s-biography/respect-life-3.html"]http://www.archden.org/archbishop-s-biogra...ect-life-3.html[/url]

Does he always need to keep posting new articles or do you suppose that he means for the older articles to be valide as long as they are on his website.

[url="http://www.archden.org/archbishop-s-biography/respect-life-3.html"]http://www.archden.org/archbishop-s-biogra...ect-life-3.html[/url]

How many articles does he have to have to explain the Churches position? I find it funny how you complain about him not having recent articles and don't let me use statements as new as september as an arguement against you, yet many of the articles you posted are several years old. Yes, your posts are of the nature of "The Davinci Code" and Hitler's Pope. Your accusing the wrong bishop here. His position in his diocese and outside it is clear! You bear false witness.