Liturgical Abuse

[jswranch]

I go to a weekly Saturday morning Mass infront of Planned Parenthood. The priest (a great guy) does two things I think are contrary to the GIRM (though I do not have a copy).

1. Reads the scriptures for Sunday on Saturday morning

2. Comes out from behind the portable altar table to give everyone a hug after the consecration when the host is by itself.


On issue 1, he said he likes doing this because it helps prep him for the Sunday sermon and Sunday mass.

On issue 2, he mentioned some canon law that allows the celibrant to come greet municipal leaders during mass. Since our participation to promote life is good, then we deserve the same honor.

What should I do now?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1105150' date='Oct 30 2006, 02:58 PM']
I go to a weekly Saturday morning Mass infront of Planned Parenthood. The priest (a great guy) does two things I think are contrary to the GIRM (though I do not have a copy).

1. Reads the scriptures for Sunday on Saturday morning

2. Comes out from behind the portable altar table to give everyone a hug after the consecration when the host is by itself.
On issue 1, he said he likes doing this because it helps prep him for the Sunday sermon and Sunday mass.

On issue 2, he mentioned some canon law that allows the celibrant to come greet municipal leaders during mass. Since our participation to promote life is good, then we deserve the same honor.

What should I do now?
[/quote]
his reasoning is wrong on both counts. it really doesn't matter whether it is good prep for him or not. specific readings are assigned to specific days for a reason. also, you aren't a dignitary or an important political figure, so he shouldn't be coming out to greet you.

the first thing you should do is talk to your associate pastor. tell him, with the utmost charity and humility, what your concerns are. he will advise you, and possibly even discuss these issues w/ the pastor. if that doesn't get you anywhere, talk to the pastor himself--again, w/ the utmost charity and humility. if that doesn't work, send a letter to your bishop. it is very important to remember that whenever you bring criticisms to a priest, that it is meant to be constructive, that you always recognize his authority, and that you give him the highest respect.

let us know how it goes.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[franciscanheart]

I'll pray for open hearts in this matter.

[jswranch]

I'll keep you updated.

[Matty_boy]

I thought Mass was supposed to be celebrated inside a church if available. (I could be wrong)

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Matty_boy' post='1110532' date='Nov 4 2006, 07:36 AM']
I thought Mass was supposed to be celebrated inside a church if available. (I could be wrong)
[/quote]

We sometimes use a portable altar table in our Cathedral for small gatherings.

[jswranch]

The bishop is cool with it. He has said mass there.

[Matty_boy]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1110677' date='Nov 4 2006, 05:32 AM']
The bishop is cool with it. He has said mass there.
[/quote]

(Not necessarily in this instance) I wouldn't put the approval of any bishop in general as a good standard of approval of the Catholic Church. Specific bishops like Chaput or Bruskewicz(sp?) or Naumann (KCK), etc. I would trust. I grew up in Dallas. The bishop there was the only bishop appointed before JPII, and he would not be considered a great bishop. He falls closer to Cardinal Mahony rather than Pope Benedict. He needs prayers, and he turned 75 this year. Blah.

[bonoducchi]

If you attend Mass daily, it would be nice to have that continuous flow that the crafters of the Lectionary intended. You might approach the topic with your priest from a perspective of "We really want to hear what happens next!" Be pastoral with your pastor!

Don't get to worked up over the priest wanting to share the peace of Christ with his parishoners in a presumably relatively low-attended Mass. I can think of worse abuses (which seems like too harsh a word). As long as it doesn't add ridiculous amounts of time to Mass, be glad he cares about his flock. Remember, people are starving in Uganda. Christ reminds us just a few weeks ago to not be so concerned with rules and sacrifice. Your pastor seems to be following Christ's teaching that love of God and neighbor "is worth more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." Mark 12:28b ff.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1129367' date='Nov 27 2006, 10:38 PM']
If you attend Mass daily, it would be nice to have that continuous flow that the crafters of the Lectionary intended. You might approach the topic with your priest from a perspective of "We really want to hear what happens next!" Be pastoral with your pastor!

Don't get to worked up over the priest wanting to share the peace of Christ with his parishoners in a presumably relatively low-attended Mass. I can think of worse abuses (which seems like too harsh a word). As long as it doesn't add ridiculous amounts of time to Mass, be glad he cares about his flock. Remember, people are starving in Uganda. Christ reminds us just a few weeks ago to not be so concerned with rules and sacrifice. Your pastor seems to be following Christ's teaching that love of God and neighbor "is worth more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." Mark 12:28b ff.
[/quote]
"There is no greater love than this than to lay down one's life for one's friends." The Mass is not one of the burnt offerings or sacrifices Christ was mentioning. It is the laying down of Christ for His beloved re-presented to us again and again. While certainly there is a certain amount of perspective necessary for understanding the gravity of offenses against the Mass, no one can say that the Mass is less important than anything. It is the most important work of the Church.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1129382' date='Nov 27 2006, 09:43 PM']
"There is no greater love than this than to lay down one's life for one's friends." The Mass is not one of the burnt offerings or sacrifices Christ was mentioning. It is the laying down of Christ for His beloved re-presented to us again and again. While certainly there is a certain amount of perspective necessary for understanding the gravity of offenses against the Mass, no one can say that the Mass is less important than anything. It is the most important work of the Church.
[/quote]

Mass is my job. Trust me, I deeply believe it is the source and summit of CHristian life. But really ,its the priest hugging you such a bad thing?

Edited November 28, 2006 by VaticanIILiturgist

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1129398' date='Nov 27 2006, 10:52 PM']
Mass is my job. Trust me, I deeply believe it is the source and summit of CHristian life. But really ,its the priest hugging you such a bad thing?
[/quote]
It's great that a priest has so much care and love for his flock, but yes, it is a bad thing that he goes around and hugs his people during Mass. It blurs the line between the priestly role and the lay role, for starters.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1129413' date='Nov 27 2006, 10:03 PM']
It's great that a priest has so much care and love for his flock, but yes, it is a bad thing that he goes around and hugs his people during Mass. It blurs the line between the priestly role and the lay role, for starters.
[/quote]

How?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1129417' date='Nov 27 2006, 11:06 PM']
How?
[/quote]
For the same reason that EMHC's in the sanctuary at the wrong time blurs the line. Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi. It doesn't make sense to believe that a priest's job in the Mass is to offer sacrifice on behalf of the community and then to have the priest acting as if he's just a part of the community during Mass...and to step out of the sanctuary to do so...he conducts the Mass in the sanctuary so that He may remain before God and give peace from God to the community. If he does so while out of the sanctuary and among the community, then it appears to the untrained that he is giving peace simply as a man and not as a representative of God. Liturgy should reflect the inward spiritual reality of what is occuring.

[bonoducchi]

Is Christ only present in the sanctuary? Would Jesus stand behind the altar or would he hug His beloved bretheren? (A stupid but somewhat useful rhetorical )

[shortnun]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1129425' date='Nov 27 2006, 10:15 PM']
For the same reason that EMHC's in the sanctuary at the wrong time blurs the line. Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi. It doesn't make sense to believe that a priest's job in the Mass is to offer sacrifice on behalf of the community and then to have the priest acting as if he's just a part of the community during Mass...and to step out of the sanctuary to do so...he conducts the Mass in the sanctuary so that He may remain before God and give peace from God to the community. If he does so while out of the sanctuary and among the community, then it appears to the untrained that he is giving peace simply as a man and not as a representative of God. Liturgy should reflect the inward spiritual reality of what is occuring.
[/quote]
The eucharistic sacrifice is first and foremost the sacrifice of Christ. The Eucharist is the [i]church's [/i]act of sacrifice--[b]not [/b]an individual. The priest doesn't offer the sacrifice b/c the community "can't" or "isn't able." The priest acts [i]in [/i]the Eucharist and offers the sacrifice b/c he acts "in the person of Christ, the head of the church." The Eucharistic, sacramental sacrifice is an act of the whole church.

That's my Christological and ecclesiological two cents. Liturgy isn't as much my strong suit. So I can't speak so much as to what the liturgical tradition has to say on this issue at hand--of priests hugging during the Eucharistic celebration. However, christology, liturgy, and eccelsiology are all unitied in our tradition. So it's not like we can piece this all apart.

Last point... Raphael, would you agree that with the statement that the priest is giving peace as BOTH a human being AND as a representative of God (which really, we all are. But I'm thinking here you mean [i]in persona Christi.[/i])? I hope I'm not being too nit-picky. Just trying to clarify.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1129448' date='Nov 27 2006, 11:32 PM']
The eucharistic sacrifice is first and foremost the sacrifice of Christ. The Eucharist is the [i]church's [/i]act of sacrifice--[b]not [/b]an individual. The priest doesn't offer the sacrifice b/c the community "can't" or "isn't able." The priest acts [i]in [/i]the Eucharist and offers the sacrifice b/c he acts "in the person of Christ, the head of the church." The Eucharistic, sacramental sacrifice is an act of the whole church.
[/quote]

I don't deny any of that. My point was that it is the priest's role to offer on behalf of the lay community. The whole Church offers it in a sense, but through the priest. It is the priest who acts in persona Christi, not the laity. As such, the priest's role in persona Christi capitis should not be confused with the role of the laity in the Church's offering of Christ.

In other words, the sacrifice is an act of the whole Church, but there are different actors in that act with different roles. They should not be confused.

[quote]Last point... Raphael, would you agree that with the statement that the priest is giving peace as BOTH a human being AND as a representative of God (which really, we all are. But I'm thinking here you mean [i]in persona Christi.[/i])? I hope I'm not being too nit-picky. Just trying to clarify.[/quote]

Yes, the priest is both the himself and in persona Christi. One does not cease in order to make way for the other. However, in as much as he is himself, he is a priest and therefore, in the liturgy, his own self is brought up into the person of Christ and so he acts primarily in persona Christi in the liturgy. Therefore, because he is a priest (and therefore an alter Christus), he should do as the Church does. To do otherwise is to tear at the Body of Christ.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1129454' date='Nov 27 2006, 10:40 PM']
I don't deny any of that. My point was that it is the priest's role to offer on behalf of the lay community. The whole Church offers it in a sense, but through the priest. It is the priest who acts in persona Christi, not the laity. As such, the priest's role in persona Christi capitis should not be confused with the role of the laity in the Church's offering of Christ.

In other words, the sacrifice is an act of the whole Church, but there are different actors in that act with different roles. They should not be confused.
Yes, the priest is both the himself and in persona Christi. One does not cease in order to make way for the other. However, in as much as he is himself, he is a priest and therefore, in the liturgy, his own self is brought up into the person of Christ and so he acts primarily in persona Christi in the liturgy. Therefore, because he is a priest (and therefore an alter Christus), he should do as the Church does. To do otherwise is to tear at the Body of Christ.
[/quote]

And I ask again, would Christ hug his sisters and brothers present at the meal of His sacrifice? If Christ instituted the Mass, we really ought to think what he would do is he were wearing the chasuble.

[quote name='shortnun' post='1129448' date='Nov 27 2006, 10:32 PM']
The eucharistic sacrifice is first and foremost the sacrifice of Christ. The Eucharist is the [i]church's [/i]act of sacrifice--[b]not [/b]an individual. The priest doesn't offer the sacrifice b/c the community "can't" or "isn't able." The priest acts [i]in [/i]the Eucharist and offers the sacrifice b/c he acts "in the person of Christ, the head of the church." The Eucharistic, sacramental sacrifice is an act of the whole church.

That's my Christological and ecclesiological two cents. Liturgy isn't as much my strong suit. So I can't speak so much as to what the liturgical tradition has to say on this issue at hand--of priests hugging during the Eucharistic celebration. However, christology, liturgy, and eccelsiology are all unitied in our tradition. So it's not like we can piece this all apart.

Last point... Raphael, would you agree that with the statement that the priest is giving peace as BOTH a human being AND as a representative of God (which really, we all are. But I'm thinking here you mean [i]in persona Christi.[/i])? I hope I'm not being too nit-picky. Just trying to clarify.
[/quote]

Illuminating! Read both versions "The Spirit of the Liturgy" and you'll b all set with liturgy !

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1129458' date='Nov 27 2006, 11:43 PM']
And I ask again, would Christ hug his sisters and brothers present at the meal of His sacrifice? If Christ instituted the Mass, we really ought to think what he would do is he were wearing the chasuble.[/quote]

It is the place of the Church to tell us that and the place of the priest and laity to obey. They are welcome to express that they would like it changed, but not free to make that change themselves.

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1129446' date='Nov 27 2006, 11:31 PM']
Is Christ only present in the sanctuary? Would Jesus stand behind the altar or would he hug His beloved bretheren? (A stupid but somewhat useful rhetorical )
[/quote]
Sorry, I missed this the first time around.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1129468' date='Nov 27 2006, 10:54 PM']
It is the place of the Church to tell us that and the place of the priest and laity to obey. They are welcome to express that they would like it changed, but not free to make that change themselves.
Sorry, I missed this the first time around.
[/quote]

The Church hasn't told us. What do YOU think? Be a thinking Catholic!