Circumcision

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1108860' date='Nov 2 2006, 02:54 PM']
A doctor taught me about the problems caused by too many c-sections. For starters, they produce scar tissue on the uterine wall which can harm chances of implantation for future children. For another, it takes much less time and effort and costs much more...which means the doctor gets more money for putting patients through unnecessary surgery and you get stuck with higher insurance premiums.

Sometimes they're necessary...often the doctor is lazy or greedy.
[/quote]

I don't think the doctors are "often" lazy or greedy any more than any other group of honest hardworking professionals. We may have the highest rates of c-section we've ever had, but we also have the lowest rates of infant morality.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1108860' date='Nov 2 2006, 12:54 PM']
A doctor taught me about the problems caused by too many c-sections. For starters, they produce scar tissue on the uterine wall which can harm chances of implantation for future children. For another, it takes much less time and effort and costs much more...which means the doctor gets more money for putting patients through unnecessary surgery and you get stuck with higher insurance premiums.

Sometimes they're necessary...often the doctor is lazy or greedy.
[/quote]
I think saying that C-sections are "often" done because doctors are lazy or greedy is a huge overgeneralization. I think that does happen, but methinks you paint with too broad a brushstroke.

Personally, I'm glad for C-sections. I and each of my four siblings are here thanks to C-sections. I was breach and Mom labored with me for 24 hours, puking with most contractions, before they opted for the C-section.

It didn't seem to harm her fertility either ... my youngest brother was born when Mom was 47.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Sojourner' post='1108872' date='Nov 2 2006, 05:06 PM']
I think saying that C-sections are "often" done because doctors are lazy or greedy is a huge overgeneralization. I think that does happen, but methinks you paint with too broad a brushstroke.

Personally, I'm glad for C-sections. I and each of my four siblings are here thanks to C-sections. I was breach and Mom labored with me for 24 hours, puking with most contractions, before they opted for the C-section.

It didn't seem to harm her fertility either ... my youngest brother was born when Mom was 47.
[/quote]
Hey...it's what the doctor told me. He said that everyone should be on the lookout because there are lots of doctors who just want money. This guy is an embryologist (he shows off his own grown children's placentas in class... ). Anyway, I believe him.

[RC_]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1108877' date='Nov 2 2006, 03:08 PM']
Hey...it's what the doctor told me. He said that everyone should be on the lookout because there are lots of doctors who just want money. This guy is an embryologist [b](he shows off his own grown children's placentas in class... )[/b]. Anyway, I believe him.
[/quote]

What was his problem? He didn't have any embarassing pictures of his kids in the tub?

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1108844' date='Nov 2 2006, 12:41 PM']
I think it is the time and the place to discuss it as Balthazor specifically asked for thoughts on how it compares to male circumcision. There are zero health benefits to circumcision. Ask any non-American non-Jewish male about it. None of my European male friends are getting infections. In fact, they think the whole idea is completely silly. Why on Earth would men have foreskins if they were detrimental? That doesn't make any sense at all. Evolution wouldn't have favored it if it caused problems.
[/quote]

And your appendix could kill you. Evolutionary dogmatism can leave much to be desired.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1109049' date='Nov 2 2006, 05:23 PM']
And your appendix could kill you. Evolutionary dogmatism can leave much to be desired.
[/quote]

Fair enough. But most pediatric associations do not advise routine circumcisions. The benefits conferred are dubious at best.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Just makes me glad I had a girl....didn't have to worry about circumcision :whew:

[Balthazor]

I geuss I was just interested in this article from my own sterile political point of view. Obviously Female circumcision is a very, very bad thing, with many detrimental side effects. In some cultures they even cut more out and "sew her shut" leaving a very small hole until her wedding night. If a bride is lucky her husband gives her a day or two to heal.

However, this brings into my head, a question of a slippery slope. This is the first case of this kind that I have ever heard of regaurding female circumcision in the United States. At least the first one to come to court. Could this lead to other things? All it would take is one angry parent that did not want to have his or her son circumcised to bring it about.

In this light I just wonder if someone will ever go so far as to try and outlaw male cirumcision as mutilation also.

As for health benefits: My mother was a nurse and she actually did know someone who got an infection and subsequently had to have a circumcision. However this is quite rare.

This is where I was going, would a group that wanted to try and get male circumcision banned as mutilation. Now as a result of this court case they would have a precident, weak as it is, to stand on. A standard to point to.

Edited November 2, 2006 by Balthazor

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1109191' date='Nov 2 2006, 06:43 PM']
I geuss I was just interested in this article from my own sterile political point of view. Obviously Female circumcision is a very, very bad thing, with many detrimental side effects. In some cultures they even cut more out and "sew her shut" leaving a very small hole until her wedding night. If a bride is lucky her husband gives her a day or two to heal.

However, this brings into my head, a question of a slippery slope. This is the first case of this kind that I have ever heard of regaurding female circumcision in the United States. At least the first one to come to court.

In this light I just wonder if someone will ever go so far as to try and outlaw male cirumcision as mutilation also.

As for health benefits: My mother was a nurse and she actually did know someone who got an infection and subsequently had to have a circumcision. However this is quite rare.

This is where I was going, would a group that wanted to try and get male circumcision banned as mutilation. Now as a result of this court case they would have a precident, weak as it is, to stand on. A stnadard to point to.
[/quote]

If female circumcision is outlawed, so should be male circumcision.

[track2004]

I've heard the cleanliness bit for male circumcision, but I don't get it. I mean what exactly are you boys doing that is so dirty? I don't get infections in that area and I have a hole there............. I don't get it at all. I know boys can't exactly choose but why would any father (or mother) be like, 'Okay sure put the very very sharp knife on his penis, I'm sure it'll be fine'?? I mean really could you convince a man who was older to have doctors do that to him? I'd also just say about cleanliness again that um if you get that infected you may have bigger issues to deal with too. It's under 2 layers of clothing and you shower often enough... WHAT HAPPENED?

Male circumcision should be outlawed save for religious reasons, of course I have friends who disagree with me, as I'm sure people here do too.

[Resurrexi]

It is GAVELY WRONG TO CIRCUMSISE YOUR CHILD, BE IT MALE OR FEMALE! ROMA LOCUTA EST, CAUSA FINITA EST!

[quote name='The Sacred Oecumenical Council of Florence']It [the Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ's passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. [b][color="#FF0000"]Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the [Jewish] sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors.[/color][/b] Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.[/quote]

Also Sacred Scripture says:

[quote name='The Sacred Paulie Epistles written by God through St. Paul'] Galatians 5:6 "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity"

Philippians 3:3 "For we are the circumcision, who in spirit serve God; and glory in Christ Jesus, not having confidence in the flesh."

I Corinthians 7:18
Is any man called, being circumcised? let him not procure uncircumcision. Is any man called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.[/quote]

[MissScripture]

[quote name='track2004' post='1109203' date='Nov 2 2006, 05:50 PM']
I've heard the cleanliness bit for male circumcision, but I don't get it. I mean what exactly are you boys doing that is so dirty? I don't get infections in that area and I have a hole there............. I don't get it at all. I know boys can't exactly choose but why would any father (or mother) be like, 'Okay sure put the very very sharp knife on his penis, I'm sure it'll be fine'?? I mean really could you convince a man who was older to have doctors do that to him? I'd also just say about cleanliness again that um if you get that infected you may have bigger issues to deal with too. It's under 2 layers of clothing and you shower often enough... WHAT HAPPENED?

Male circumcision should be outlawed save for religious reasons, of course I have friends who disagree with me, as I'm sure people here do too.
[/quote]
Any folds of skin are going to be a breeding ground for bacteria. Espeically if said fold of skin is in a moist area. And that is why it needs to be cleaned.
Hint: Bacteria doesn't care how many layers of clothing that something is under.

[track2004]

Teach the boys cleanliness is next to godliness... or make them shower. It's not like cleaning that is all that hard.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1109235' date='Nov 2 2006, 09:23 PM']
It is GAVELY WRONG TO CIRCUMSISE YOUR CHILD, BE IT MALE OR FEMALE! ROMA LOCUTA EST, CAUSA FINITA EST!
[/quote]
We've been through this already. The document you quote only condemns circumcision done by Christians for [i]religious[/i] reasons. Doing it for health reasons is perfectly legitimate.

Don't take things out of context.

[Winchester]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1108844' date='Nov 2 2006, 01:41 PM']
I think it is the time and the place to discuss it as Balthazor specifically asked for thoughts on how it compares to male circumcision. There are zero health benefits to circumcision. Ask any non-American non-Jewish male about it. None of my European male friends are getting infections. In fact, they think the whole idea is completely silly. Why on Earth would men have foreskins if they were detrimental? That doesn't make any sense at all. Evolution wouldn't have favored it if it caused problems.
[/quote]

There's a fallacy there. For evolution to work, the characteristic must change in a member of the species, and those with the undesirable characteristic must be unable to reproduce. It's not so bad or common that uncut males are unable to reproduce, but it does increase the need for hygiene.

As medicine advances, evolution plays a smaller role in human development.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1109782' date='Nov 3 2006, 11:53 AM']
There's a fallacy there. For evolution to work, the characteristic must change in a member of the species, and those with the undesirable characteristic must be unable to reproduce. It's not so bad or common that uncut males are unable to reproduce, but it does increase the need for hygiene.

As medicine advances, evolution plays a smaller role in human development.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but if there were a statistically significant increase in urinary tract infections due to foreskin, it would have been a huge evolutionary issue - especially in the time before antibiotics (the vast majority of human history). The AAP says that the potential benefits conferred by circumcision do not merit routine circumcisions. Other countries are even less convinced of the hygienic benefits of the practice.

[Winchester]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1109906' date='Nov 3 2006, 01:46 PM']
I'm sorry, but if there were a statistically significant increase in urinary tract infections due to foreskin, it would have been a huge evolutionary issue - especially in the time before antibiotics (the vast majority of human history). The AAP says that the potential benefits conferred by circumcision do not merit routine circumcisions. Other countries are even less convinced of the hygienic benefits of the practice.
[/quote]

But you can't count on evolution to cure undesirable traits.

I present Larry King as evidence.


And I'm glad my parents did what they did. I'm quite happy.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1109962' date='Nov 3 2006, 03:24 PM']
But you can't count on evolution to cure undesirable traits.

I present Larry King as evidence.
And I'm glad my parents did what they did. I'm quite happy.
[/quote]

Well, I'm not saying circumcision is heinously evil or that parents who do it are wrong. My only complaint in my own case is the surgeon didn't slip with the scalpel. :