Evangelical Leader Quits Because Of Male Escort's Allegations

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1110186' date='Nov 3 2006, 06:42 PM']
The parts don't fit. Ergo, it was not intended by the Creator and is disordered.
[/quote]

That's not true. Plenty of people have really messed up "parts" and they were born that way. Should they completely abstain from any and all sexual activity?

[kamiller42]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1110019' date='Nov 3 2006, 03:35 PM']
No. I'm arguing civil law is defined by what the consenus of the nation believes to be normal behavior. Drinking alcohol is normal behavior, but that doesn't mean it is ethical or unethical, however it does mean that it's legal. I think we'll eventually go the way of Holland and legalize drugs or prostitution as well, but I'm not going to comment on the ethics of that.[/quote]
This proves New Life Church and Haggard are well within their right to discuss the ethics of homosexuality and conclude it's unethical even if it's legal.

Your definition of "normal" is loose. You base "normal" on the simple idea of "everybody's doing it", therefore, it's normal. If everybody began walking backwards, is that normal? If there was a wave of fathers molesting sons, is that normal?

Since we're quoting the dictionary:
Normal:
2 a : according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, [b]rule[/b], or [b]principle[/b] b : [b]conforming to a[/b] type, [b]standard[/b], or regular pattern.

[quote]As to my statement, I said:

Or maybe it just goes to show that homosexuality is perfectly normal and they should stop pathologizing it - then there wouldn't be any scandal.

Pathologize means: to view or characterize as medically or psychologically abnormal

So I'm saying something that is normal should be viewed as something normal. Not that it should be viewed as something moral. That was simply your interpretation of my statement.
[/quote]
If "this is what I meant to say" was to be your primary defense, it should have been your primary defense.

Your claim goes beyond even what the accuser, Jones, is saying. Jones' disagreement is with prohibiting homosexual marriage. He said nothing about the church defining homosexuality as an abnormal mental process. Could you provide links and quotes from New Life Church and Haggard stating this to support your accusation?

[KizlarAgha]

They're clearly pathologizing homosexuality. That's what calling it disordered is. All I'm saying is that this scandal wouldn't be nearly as big if he was simply boozing and taking drugs. Sex in America is a huge deal. Gay sex is a bigger deal.

As to your definition, I used the same definition as you, taking it to be a norm. I then used the following definition of norm:

3 : AVERAGE: as a : a set standard of development or achievement usually derived from the average or median achievement of a large group b : a pattern or trait taken to be typical in the behavior of a social group c : a widespread or usual practice, procedure, or custom

I nowhere said they didn't have a right to discuss ethics. You really need to stop putting words in my mouth and deliberately misinterpreting what I say. You've done it on multiple threads now.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1110223' date='Nov 3 2006, 06:35 PM']
[b]They're clearly pathologizing homosexuality. [/b] That's what calling it disordered is. All I'm saying is that this scandal wouldn't be nearly as big if he was simply boozing and taking drugs. Sex in America is a huge deal. Gay sex is a bigger deal.[/quote]
I look forward to your references from New Hope Church.

Like our discussion on the definition of normal, you need to understand what the Catholic Church means when it says homosexuality is a "disordered behavior." Calling behavior "disordered" requires context. The context the Catholic Church uses is God's will. It's not a statement on mental or physical abilities or lack of. It doesn't mean a homosexual should wear a straight jacket. It a statement about behavior not ordered to God's will.

[quote]As to your definition, I used the same definition as you, taking it to be a norm. I then used the following definition of norm:[/quote]
I didn't say you were not using a correct definition of normal. I said you're using a loose definition, one that allows for broad conclusions. I highly doubt New Hope Church uses your definition of normal. Although I am a novice, I feel confident in saying the Catholic Church does subscribe to your selected definition.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1110270' date='Nov 3 2006, 08:47 PM']
I look forward to your references from New Hope Church.

Like our discussion on the definition of normal, you need to understand what the Catholic Church means when it says homosexuality is a "disordered behavior." Calling behavior "disordered" requires context. The context the Catholic Church uses is God's will. It's not a statement on mental or physical abilities or lack of. It doesn't mean a homosexual should wear a straight jacket. It a statement about behavior not ordered to God's will.
I didn't say you were not using a correct definition of normal. I said you're using a loose definition, one that allows for broad conclusions. I highly doubt New Hope Church uses your definition of normal. Although I am a novice, I feel confident in saying the Catholic Church does subscribe to your selected definition.
[/quote]

There's nothing loose about properly using the English language.

As to what New Hope Church believes - they believe that the bible is literally true and free from all error. Since they read the bible literally, they hold that homosexuality is an abomination.

Edited November 4, 2006 by KizlarAgha

[kamiller42]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1110272' date='Nov 3 2006, 07:51 PM']
There's nothing loose about properly using the English language.[/quote]
As someone knowledgeable of the English language, you understand some definitions are more specific than others.

[quote]As to what New Hope Church believes - they believe that the bible is literally true and free from all error. Since they read the bible literally, they hold that homosexuality is an abomination.
[/quote]
Please cite New Hope Church's dogma or link to it and I'll read it. You said "They're clearly pathologizing homosexuality." If it's so clear, providing evidence should be trivial.

Calling a behavior an abomination is not the same as your definition of "pathologizing". I applaud this change. I am no authority on New Hope Church, but I think it is closer to, but not exactly, what they believe.

[cappie]

Top US pastor sacked amid sex row
One of the US's most influential evangelical preachers has been dismissed by his church for what it called "sexually immoral conduct".

The Reverend Ted Haggard, a vocal opponent of gay marriage, on Friday admitted buying drugs and having a massage from a gay masseur.

But he denied using the methamphetamine or having sex with the man.

[b]The New Life Church said its inquiries and his public statements proved Pastor Haggard had committed immoral conduct.

It has been decided that "the most positive and productive direction for our church is his dismissal and removal," the Colorado-based church said in a statement on its website. [/b]

[url="http://www.newlifechurch.org/pressrelease110606.pdf"]http://www.newlifechurch.org/pressrelease110606.pdf[/url]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='cappie' post='1111612' date='Nov 5 2006, 01:48 AM']
[b]The New Life Church said its inquiries and his public statements proved Pastor Haggard had committed immoral conduct.[/b]

[url="http://www.newlifechurch.org/pressrelease110606.pdf"]http://www.newlifechurch.org/pressrelease110606.pdf[/url]
[/quote]
Li'l correction.
The New Life Church said its inquires and his public statements proved Pastor haggard had commited immoral [b]SEXUAL[/b] conduct.

At the end of the statement, it says that there will be a letter of explanation and apology read at the services. That should be interesting.

[cappie]

US pastor admits sex 'immorality'
Disgraced former US evangelist leader Reverend Ted Haggard has confessed to his followers that he was guilty of "sexual immorality".

"I am a deceiver and a liar," Mr Haggard said in a letter - a day after his New Life Church fired him for what it called "sexually immoral conduct".

A vocal opponent of gay marriage, he earlier admitted buying drugs and having a massage from a gay masseur.

But he denied using the methamphetamine or having sex with the man.

"I am so sorry for the circumstances that have caused shame and embarrassment for all of you," Mr Haggard said in the letter that was read out to New Life Church followers in Colorado Springs.

"There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark and I've been warring against it my entire adult life," the letter said.

'Pastor Ted'

The row erupted last week, after Mike Jones told a Colorado radio station that he had been paid to have sex with Mr Haggard nearly every month over the past three years.

Mr Haggard denied the claims but said he did receive a massage after being referred to Mr Jones by a Denver hotel.

Mr Haggard, 50, who on Thursday stepped down as the head of the 30m-strong National Association of Evangelicals, also admitted that he bought methamphetamine but "never used it".

The issue is being played out against the backdrop of a vote in Colorado and seven other US states on Tuesday on whether to ban same-sex marriages.

Mr Haggard, who is also known as "Pastor Ted" and has five children, has close contacts with the White House.
Story from BBC NEWS:

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='cappie' post='1112079' date='Nov 5 2006, 05:04 PM']Mr Haggard, who is also known as "Pastor Ted" and has five children, has close contacts with the White House.
Story from BBC NEWS:
[/quote]

Yes, heaven forbid we might forget to put in a little tie to the White House the week before an election...

[cmotherofpirl]

I feel sorry for his wife and kids.

[homeschoolmom]

yeah...

[cappie]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1112220' date='Nov 6 2006, 11:14 AM']
Yes, heaven forbid we might forget to put in a little tie to the White House the week before an election...
[/quote]

a bit like the verdict on on a certain Iraqi dictator.....

[homeschoolmom]

How in the world does the Haggard situation have anything to do with Bush?

[cappie]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1112577' date='Nov 7 2006, 12:01 AM']
How in the world does the Haggard situation have anything to do with Bush?
[/quote]

Political Convenience no matter which side your on

[Era Might]

The bottom line:

[quote]Early in the morning he came again to the temple; all the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them.

The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?"

...

Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again."

--John 8[/quote]