Quota For Homosexual And/or Atheist Clergy?

[cmotherofpirl]

Quota for Homosexual and/or Atheist Clergy?
From the desk of Filip van Laenen on Sat, 2006-11-04 17:20
It looks like not everyone in the Norwegian Lutheran Church has accepted homosexual clergymen yet. Yesterday, the Norwegian Association for Lesbian and Homosexual Emancipation (LLH, Landsforeningen for lesbisk og homofil frigjøring) said that it wants quota introduced for them. Another organization, the Open Church Group (Åpen kirkegruppe), stated that dioceses with a positive view towards homosexual clergymen should actively go out and recruit them for their parishes.

The LLH notes that homosexual clergymen are not welcome everywhere. Sometimes their applications are not considered when a new vicar has to be appointed. The spokesman of the association, Nils Riedl, compares the fight for homosexual clergymen to the fight for female clergypersons. Therefore the association wants to improve the position of the lesbians and male homosexuals within the Norwegian Lutheran Church by imposing quota. In a reaction to the proposal both the social democratic Labor Party (Ap, Arbeiderpartiet) and the conservative Right (H, Høyre) emphasized that they support the organization's objectives, but not the demand for quota. They think the latter would damage the interests of homosexuals in the long run.

Will there soon be a demand for quota for atheist clergy too? The latter do exist. Remember the story of the Danish vicar Thorkild Grosbøll a few months ago. He caused a row when he said he did not believe in God. He was briefly suspended but was immediately allowed to resume his job when he declared that he had regained his faith in God.

So what will come next in this surreal tale of female, homosexual and atheist vicars? Muslim vicars perhaps? Believe it or not, but in Sweden there is already a debate about removing the word "Swedish" from the name Svenska Kyrkan [Swedish Church] because it is perceived to be hostile to immigrants. Some say that in a multicultural society the Church should become multicultural too, and hence include immigrants. References to the Swedishness of the Swedish Church should therefore be avoided. I assume that once they start to go down that road, Muslim vicars should not be excluded either.

Two thousand years ago, Christianity was founded by a young, religious Jewish man. If He took his religion seriously (and if there is any truth in The Da Vinci Code) Jesus was a heterosexual. If the Open Church Group achieves its aims soon vicars like Him will be the exception rahter than the rule in "enlightened" dioceses. Next time God tries to save the world, He had better send His lesbian daughter who does not believe in Him or in her brother.


[url="http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1629"]http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1629[/url]

[Groo the Wanderer]

Methinks there are not enough gay shinto druids in the Magisterium. Better set a quota.

[beatty07]

this is hilarious.

[Veritas]

+

Insanity.

[Goetian]

Slippery slope. The difference between creating a quota for homosexuals and a quota for atheists is that atheism is a choice.

That said, I agree churches should be allowed to select clergy that reflect their beliefs, so this whole push is idiotic, but it will hardly lead to "atheist clergy".

[cathoholic_anonymous]

How can you put a quota on [b]anything[/b] that is related to vocations? Suppose you have twenty heterosexual Catholic and twenty homosexual ones. Now suppose ten of those straight Catholics feel the call to the priesthood, but only three of the gay Catholics do. No amount of quota-setting will cause the number to rise. You have to feel a genuine, divinely inspired call before you can be a priest. There is no such thing as 'equal opportunities' when it comes to God.

I don't really see why there is such a fuss about gay people joining the clergy anyway. The Church teaches that gay people should remain celibate - just as priests do. Consequently, a gay priest who is faithful to his vows is on perfectly equal terms with his heterosexual counterparts. Why all this hullaballoo? If a faithful Catholic who is also gay applies to enter the seminary, let him enter. If he doesn't want to enter, don't go out and try to hound him in with a quota. What good will that do?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1112544' date='Nov 6 2006, 07:54 AM']
How can you put a quota on [b]anything[/b] that is related to vocations? Suppose you have twenty heterosexual Catholic and twenty homosexual ones. Now suppose ten of those straight Catholics feel the call to the priesthood, but only three of the gay Catholics do. No amount of quota-setting will cause the number to rise. You have to feel a genuine, divinely inspired call before you can be a priest. There is no such thing as 'equal opportunities' when it comes to God.

I don't really see why there is such a fuss about gay people joining the clergy anyway. The Church teaches that gay people should remain celibate - just as priests do. Consequently, a gay priest who is faithful to his vows is on perfectly equal terms with his heterosexual counterparts. Why all this hullaballoo? If a faithful Catholic who is also gay applies to enter the seminary, let him enter. If he doesn't want to enter, don't go out and try to hound him in with a quota. What good will that do?
[/quote]
Really.
How can someone with grave disorder enter the priesthood???
Why do you think we have the scandal we have today???

[Matty_boy]

Hmm. Didn't anybody learn from the errors of the Catholic Church?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1112544' date='Nov 6 2006, 07:54 AM']
I don't really see why there is such a fuss about gay people joining the clergy anyway. The Church teaches that gay people should remain celibate - just as priests do. Consequently, a gay priest who is faithful to his vows is on perfectly equal terms with his heterosexual counterparts. Why all this hullaballoo? If a faithful Catholic who is also gay applies to enter the seminary, let him enter. If he doesn't want to enter, don't go out and try to hound him in with a quota. What good will that do?
[/quote]
Because puting men who have an attraction to men in a small, closed dormatory with a bunch of other men isn't promoting a vocation to the priesthood any more than puting men with an attraction to women in a small, closed dormatory with women would be.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1112544' date='Nov 6 2006, 07:54 AM']
How can you put a quota on [b]anything[/b] that is related to vocations? Suppose you have twenty heterosexual Catholic and twenty homosexual ones. Now suppose ten of those straight Catholics feel the call to the priesthood, but only three of the gay Catholics do. No amount of quota-setting will cause the number to rise. You have to feel a genuine, divinely inspired call before you can be a priest. There is no such thing as 'equal opportunities' when it comes to God.

I don't really see why there is such a fuss about gay people joining the clergy anyway. The Church teaches that gay people should remain celibate - just as priests do. Consequently, a gay priest who is faithful to his vows is on perfectly equal terms with his heterosexual counterparts. Why all this hullaballoo? If a faithful Catholic who is also gay applies to enter the seminary, let him enter. If he doesn't want to enter, don't go out and try to hound him in with a quota. What good will that do?
[/quote]
Homosexuals are disordered in their sexuality. People with disordered sexuality (including but not limited to homosexuality) have no place in the priesthood. The priest represents Christ the Bridegroom, and should be a man whose sexuality and psyche are sound and properly ordered.

(And it should be noted that most of the recent scandals involved homosexuality. Such are the fruits [no pun intended] of homosexuals being let in the seminary.)

(I read some really good articles on this subject by veteran priests a while back in [i]The Wanderer[/i], but unfortunately, I couldn't find the text online.)

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]How can someone with grave disorder enter the priesthood???
Why do you think we have the scandal we have today???[/quote]

Most of the scandals involve paedophile priests abusing children. There is no evidence whatsoever that links paedophilia with homosexuality. One involves sexual attraction to mature members of the same sex. One involves sexual attraction to children. I find both things disturbing, but it is both unfair and unrealistic to suggest that the paedophilia scandals are the fault of gay priests. It's a completely different thing.

[quote]Because puting men who have an attraction to men in a small, closed dormatory with a bunch of other men isn't promoting a vocation to the priesthood any more than puting men with an attraction to women in a small, closed dormatory with women would be.[/quote]

Not all seminaries put their students in dormitories. Some seminarians have their own small rooms or cells, Carmelite-style. Couldn't provision like this be made for those seminarians who requested it? If they really were determined to lead a celibate life and enter the priesthood, they should be willing to take any measure to guard their vocation.

[quote]The priest represents Christ the Bridegroom, and should be a man whose sexuality and psyche are sound and properly ordered.[/quote]

I know personally a priest who was struck down by depression. (The mental health charity MIND estimates that 25% of the population are affected by mental health difficulties at some point in their lives, although obviously some people have much worse conditions than others.) Father's psyche was no longer properly ordered...but he still managed to be a wonderful priest. He says now that the only thing that kept him from suicide during those years was the knowledge that his parishioners needed him. He got very ill at one point and required a lot of support from us. But that didn't bother the parish. If anything, his difficulties gave him the chance to grow in holiness - and we all admired and respected him for it. Ultimately, the experience made him a better priest.

Nobody can ever truly be good enough to be a priest, gay or straight. I'm open to discussion on this issue, but it doesn't seem right to demand perfection of anyone. All God asks for is a humble and contrite heart.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1113601' date='Nov 7 2006, 10:31 AM']
Most of the scandals involve paedophile priests abusing children. There is no evidence whatsoever that links paedophilia with homosexuality. One involves sexual attraction to mature members of the same sex. One involves sexual attraction to children. I find both things disturbing, but it is both unfair and unrealistic to suggest that the paedophilia scandals are the fault of gay priests. It's a completely different thing.
[/quote]

Wrong.
Most of the scandals were homosexual in nature and not pedophilia.
And wrong again in that hemosexuals DO prefer young partners.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Most of the scandals were homosexual in nature and not pedophilia.
And wrong again in that hemosexuals DO prefer young partners.[/quote]

Can you cite evidence for these claims? By that I mean empirical studies into sexual preferences within homosexuality, carried out by competent and fully accredited psychologists. I have yet to see one such study.

Regarding the sex scandals, almost every one I've read about involved children. Perhaps this is because the media finds that topic more scintillating, I don't know. But so far there appears to be no evidence at all for the idea that the majority of scandals in the priesthood are linked to homosexuality - not even anecdotal evidence.

[cmotherofpirl]

We have done many threads on this topic previously with tons of stats.
The media focused on the children,and did their best to ignor the homosexual nature of most of the cases.
Priests and teenage boys are not pedophilia.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1113909' date='Nov 7 2006, 02:21 PM']
Can you cite evidence for these claims? By that I mean empirical studies into sexual preferences within homosexuality, carried out by competent and fully accredited psychologists. I have yet to see one such study.

Regarding the sex scandals, almost every one I've read about involved children. Perhaps this is because the media finds that topic more scintillating, I don't know. But so far there appears to be no evidence at all for the idea that the majority of scandals in the priesthood are linked to homosexuality - not even anecdotal evidence.
[/quote]
Studies aren't required. Look at the cases of abuse. The quote isn't saying that homosexuals are pedophiles, but that the cases of abuse by priests were homosexuality-driven, not pedophilia-driven. Most of the victims were pubescent, meaning that their cases don't fall under the pedophilia classification, which requires children, not teens.

[Aloysius]

abuse by priests generally falls under the category of ephebophilia, as it is with post-pubescent boys. ephebophilia is a very prevalent specific fetish within the homosexual fetish, and ephebophilia of males to boys is certainly always driven by the homosexual fetish, not at all the same as the pedophilia fetish.

[Mitchell_b55]

Saluti alicui dicere, impertire, nuntiare. Sermonem producere in multam noctem.

[quote]
I don't really see why there is such a fuss about gay people joining the clergy anyway. The Church teaches that gay people should remain celibate - just as priests do. [/quote]

Please read, [url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=100"]Monsignor Tony Anatrella - Reflections on the Instruction on the Admittance of Homosexuals into Seminaries[/url]

...and the document of the Congregation for Catholic Education,[url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=98"]Concerning the Criteria of Vocational Discernment regarding person with Homosexual Tendencies in View of their admission to Seminaries and Holy Orders[/url]

If a homosexual were forbidden to become a priest, it would be a disciplinary action. At one time, a person born illegitimately, could not become a priest, because birth out of wedlock inferred adultery or fornication and consequently such a priest would not recieve the respect a clerical individual is to be given. I would say that homosexuals should not be permitted to become priests, because it would cause (or more precisely, is causing) a slow degradation of clerical status, turning the image of the clergy into a disrepected, effeminate group of celibate (I don't mean celibacy to be a bad state, quite the contrary.)homosexuals. This is not an image respectful of the Divine Authorship of the Church and her Priesthood. It is also scandalous to allow such admittance of homosexuals, because of the association with sexual abuse. I do not say that a connection exists, but in the mind of the people it does. (However, Aloysius made a valid point.) We should above all not commit scandal, if the loss of a few homosexual priests will help in the Divine plan to win souls to Christ, then such concession should be made. If we find that homosexuals use the priesthood as a haven, then we should be even more careful of admitting them to our seminaries and finally to the priesthood.

Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat.

Petrus Scholasticus...

Edited November 7, 2006 by petrus_scholasticus

[Goetian]

[quote name='petrus_scholasticus' post='1114031' date='Nov 7 2006, 04:04 PM']At one time, a person born illegitimately, could not become a priest, because birth out of wedlock inferred adultery or fornication and consequently such a priest would not recieve the respect a clerical individual is to be given.
[/quote]

So wait. Now the Church cares about what the world respects and disrespects?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]The quote isn't saying that homosexuals are pedophiles, but that the cases of abuse by priests were homosexuality-driven, not pedophilia-driven. Most of the victims were pubescent, meaning that their cases don't fall under the pedophilia classification, which requires children, not teens.[/quote]

For legal purposes (at least in Britain - I don't know American law) if a man has sex with a person under the age of sixteen, the British age of consent, he can be charged with rape even if the sex was consensual. He could also be charged with paedophilia, as an under-sixteen is still a child. Puberty is an ongoing process, and the transition from childhood to adulthood is as much mental as it is physical. There is no concrete stage that you can point to and say, "Here is where childhood ends."

Semantics apart, it is possible that paedophile priests target adolescents not out of preference, but because it is easier for them to close to these teenagers without arousing suspicion. Younger children are more likely to be supervised all the time, and older ones are more likely to have responsible jobs in the church (i.e. chief altar server) that require them to go alone to the sacristy, etc. There are just too many variables for people to be able to say unequivocally, "Yes, the sex scandals in the Catholic church come about as a result of having gay priests." So I would say that studies [i]are[/i] required if we hope to eliminate these extraneous factors that could be misleading us. If we really care about what goes on in our parishes, we should be willing to do whatever we can to educate ourselves about this sort of problem.

[quote]I would say that homosexuals should not be permitted to become priests, because it would cause (or more precisely, is causing) a slow degradation of clerical status, turning the image of the clergy into a disrepected, effeminate group of celibate (I don't mean celibacy to be a bad state, quite the contrary.)[/quote]

Firstly, not all homosexual people are effeminate. Secondly, priests born out of wedlock were once denied ordination for fear of degrading the clergy, as you have pointed out. Now very few people would care if a priest was born of a sinful relationship, acknowledging that it wasn't his fault, and no one would malign the clergy for it. In fact, they'd probably be happy that someone born in those circumstances had grown up to be a priest. Possibly the ordination of committed Catholics who also happen to be homosexual will one day be equally commonplace.

[quote]It is also scandalous to allow such admittance of homosexuals, because of the association with sexual abuse. I do not say that a connection exists, but in the mind of the people it does.[/quote]

In the mind of the people outside the palace of Pontius Pilate, Jesus Christ was worthy of death - even though there was no connection between the accusations and the reality. The Church isn't there to cater to public opinion. She is there to treasure the truth.

[Fidei Defensor]

Please don't assume that all men who are afflicted with same sex attraction have a "yearning" of some kind of other males. It's no different than assuming that all heterosexual males lust after every woman they see. It's just not true.

While I agree that practicing, self acclaimed homosexuals should not be admitted to seminary, I don't agree with the attitude here than all men who may have any hint of SSA should be banned. This is not what the Church document said, and it is limiting upon God's will if you were to say that. Believe it or not, God may call someone who feels SSA to be a priest. However, obviously, this person isn't living the "gay lifestyle." They know that it is a grave matter, and choose to live chastely and not a sinful life.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not advocating the acceptance of "gay priests." I am simply saying that you are unwise to assume that God can't call a man who is afflicted with SSA to be a priest. But this man isn't going to be "gay", in so much as he rejects the "lifestyle" and he rejects that notion that it's okay to be "gay." Rather, he is giving his life fully to Christ.