Plan B For Rape Victims?

[thessalonian]

O'k, I heard a priest on Relevant Radio this morning say that if it could be shown that a conception had not occured, so that the abortifacient effects of plan B could be ruled out, that it could be morally acceptable to use the Plan B pill to prevent conception for a rape victim. The basis for this is the following article:

[url="http://www.linacre.org/MornAftPillMcC.htm"]http://www.linacre.org/MornAftPillMcC.htm[/url]

This is rather surprizing to me of course though I can see where it is coming from. But it does raise the question, is this also okay for a non-married woman who got drunk and had sex outside of marriage or a woman who cheated on her husband and wants to prevent the damaging effects of a child. If it is okay in the rape case why would it be wrong in these cases. I am not convinced that it should be used in the rape case and would like to see more discussion on that matter. So have at it folks.

Thanks

Edited November 7, 2006 by thessalonian

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]This is rather surprizing to me of course though I can see where it is coming from. But it does raise the question, is this also okay for a non-married woman who got drunk and had sex outside of marriage or a woman who cheated on her husband and wants to prevent the damaging effects of a child. [/quote]

Perhaps it is because there is no choice involved in rape, whereas there is a choice involved in cheating on your husband or getting drunk and having premarital sex. This is a weak reason, I know, but I can't think of a better one.

[CatholicCid]

Wouldn't it be immoral as a contraceptive then? Since it would be used to stop the semen from fertalizing the eggs.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1114252' date='Nov 7 2006, 05:54 PM']
m[/url]

This is rather surprizing to me of course though I can see where it is coming from. But it does raise the question, is this also okay for a non-married woman who got drunk and had sex outside of marriage or a woman who cheated on her husband and wants to prevent the damaging effects of a child. If it is okay in the rape case why would it be wrong in these cases. I am not convinced that it should be used in the rape case and would like to see more discussion on that matter. So have at it folks.

Thanks
[/quote]

The moral tradition would say that it was ok for a rape victim and not ok in the other cases because consent was given in the latter and not in the former.

[RC_]

People are grasping at straws here. Contraception is a mortal sin.

[beatty07]

My opinion is that contraception with fornication is no additional sin and expresses prudence... not that there's a "prudent" way to commit sin. The goods assaulted by contraception are, in fornication, already annihilated. But it's simply an academic question...sort of like is one method of murdering more evil than another. We shouldn't ever be in a situation where the question matters!

The trouble is proving that no conception has occured... e.g., is a 5-minute old conception detectable?

[RC_]

[quote name='beatty07' post='1114345' date='Nov 7 2006, 07:50 PM']
My opinion is that contraception with fornication is no additional sin and expresses prudence... not that there's a "prudent" way to commit sin. The goods assaulted by contraception are, in fornication, already annihilated. But it's simply an academic question...sort of like is one method of murdering more evil than another. We shouldn't ever be in a situation where the question matters!

The trouble is proving that no conception has occured... e.g., is a 5-minute old conception detectable?
[/quote]

Contraception is a mortal sin in and of itself. Fornification is a mortal sin in and of itself. Contraception with fornification is two seperate sins commited at the same time.

[Birgitta Noel]

Just a quick note to clarify that in the case of rape the use of a "contraceptive" is not contraceptive in nature. The Church views the use in this case as self defense against the unjust aggressor of which the sperm are a part. Of course the Church does not condone the use of emergency contraception which is acting as an abortifacient in a particular instance.

There's an extensive thread on this side issue of rape and emergency contraception. You'll have to search for it if you want more on that issue.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='The Little Way' post='1114379' date='Nov 7 2006, 08:17 PM']
Just a quick note to clarify that in the case of rape the use of a "contraceptive" is not contraceptive in nature. The Church views the use in this case as self defense against the unjust aggressor of which the sperm are a part. Of course the Church does not condone the use of emergency contraception which is acting as an abortifacient in a particular instance.

There's an extensive thread on this side issue of rape and emergency contraception. You'll have to search for it if you want more on that issue.
[/quote]
Good to have a member with a PhD in Catholic medical ethics. Thanks, B.

[Birgitta Noel]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1114411' date='Nov 7 2006, 07:42 PM']
Good to have a member with a PhD in Catholic medical ethics. Thanks, B.
[/quote]

Thanks you

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='The Little Way' post='1114379' date='Nov 7 2006, 08:17 PM']
Just a quick note to clarify that in the case of rape the use of a "contraceptive" is not contraceptive in nature. The Church views the use in this case as self defense against the unjust aggressor of which the sperm are a part. Of course the Church does not condone the use of emergency contraception which is acting as an abortifacient in a particular instance.

There's an extensive thread on this side issue of rape and emergency contraception. You'll have to search for it if you want more on that issue.
[/quote]

Now the original statement makes more sense as well. ty.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='The Little Way' post='1114379' date='Nov 7 2006, 10:17 PM']
Just a quick note to clarify that in the case of rape the use of a "contraceptive" is not contraceptive in nature. The Church views the use in this case as self defense against the unjust aggressor of which the sperm are a part. Of course the Church does not condone the use of emergency contraception which is acting as an abortifacient in a particular instance.

There's an extensive thread on this side issue of rape and emergency contraception. You'll have to search for it if you want more on that issue.
[/quote]
seems like practical applications for this are...practically...nil, as most doctors will not be interested in a theology lesson and won't bother to make sure there is no abortifacient effect. practically.

[beatty07]

[quote name='RC_' post='1114355' date='Nov 7 2006, 06:56 PM']
Contraception is a mortal sin in and of itself. Fornification is a mortal sin in and of itself. Contraception with fornification is two seperate sins commited at the same time.
[/quote]

When the Church has spoken about contraception, she has always assumed the context of marriage, as far as I know. Do you know of an exception to this? I'd be surprised to find one, since the question is usually moot outside marriage.

However, it does have real-world significance from time to time. For example, a woman who is going into a mission field with a high risk of rape may take non-abortifacient contraceptive measures. The above statement, unless nuanced, would convict her of mortal sin. The same applies to the situation that started this thread.

Sorry if this is rehash of another thread...I couldn't find it discussed this way elsewhere.

Edited November 8, 2006 by beatty07

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='RC_' post='1114342' date='Nov 7 2006, 07:49 PM']
People are grasping at straws here. Contraception is a mortal sin.
[/quote]
Wholeheartedly seconded.

[beatty07]

[quote name='RC_' post='1114342' date='Nov 7 2006, 06:49 PM']
People are grasping at straws here. Contraception is a mortal sin.
[/quote]


fides quaerit intellectum.
"faith seeks understanding."

If the straw in question helps us understand the law of God, it's well worth grasping. I think we can give everyone the benefit of the doubt; we're trying to explore and apply the Church's teaching in a spirit of obedience.

Edited November 8, 2006 by beatty07

[Birgitta Noel]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' post='1114463' date='Nov 7 2006, 08:28 PM']
seems like practical applications for this are...practically...nil, as most doctors will not be interested in a theology lesson and won't bother to make sure there is no abortifacient effect. practically.
[/quote]

A few points of clarification. (I am quite exhausted so please don't take my directness and brevity as being terse, only as economy of scale!)

1. "Plan B" is only one of a number of contaceptives which may be administered in cases of rape, there are others which have different mechanisms of action. The proper term to be used would be "emergency contraception" as that covers the purpose of the drug rather than specifying a particular drug formulation. Not all emergency contraceptives are abortifacient and some may be so only some of the time.

2. I assure you that there are many physicians (and women) who are concerned about the abortifacient effects of emergency contraceptions, as well as Catholic health care systems. This is not just a theological or theoretical issue, it is a very real issue.

3. There are protocols which have been developed for use in Catholic hospitals which discern based on menstrual cycle data, hormone levels, and other signs whether a woman is pregnant at the time of the rape and in some cases whether or not she has recently ovulated and thus whether or not it would be appropriate to give emergency contraception. The two most common protocols are "the pregnancy approach" and "the ovulation approach". There are pros and cons to each and each is morally acceptable IMHO though there may be reasons to prefer one over the other.

4. I don't remember what my last point was so I'm going to bed.

Edited November 8, 2006 by The Little Way

[beatty07]

Thanks for the clarification and reasoning...that helps a lot!

hope you slept well.

[thessalonian]

Thx for the discussion. It is helping. I am interested in any statements by the vatican on this if there are any or will be in the future.

I think I am understanding this and am okay with it. Contraception is wrong in marriage because it is a denial of the vows, giving eachother to eachother totally, faithfully, and fruitfully. It places a barrier in the one flesh union of the man and woman. Outside of marriage however, specifically in the case of rape there is no total, faithful, and fruitful committement and so it would not be immoral to prevent a conception in that case. The gift of self is not given to the man, who is taking and using. The conception can be morally prevented but not morally terminated because at the point that it occurs there is a life of another human being, a third party involved in the moral decision making process.

I do need to give some more thought to the unmarried fornication aspects of this discussion. Most certainly the grave sin of the fornication puts one's soul at risk. Could one go to a priest, confess the sin, find out if they were pregnant, and if not use plan B morally? I think that the fact that she willfully chose to unite herself with the other adulterous partner would have a play in this senario. But once again it seems to me the lines have been greyed.

Edited November 8, 2006 by thessalonian

[beatty07]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1115149' date='Nov 8 2006, 01:10 PM']
I do need to give some more thought to the unmarried fornication aspects of this discussion. Most certainly the grave sin of the fornication puts one's soul at risk. Could one go to a priest, confess the sin, find out if they were pregnant, and if not use plan B morally? I think that the fact that she willfully chose to unite herself with the other adulterous partner would have a play in this senario. But once again it seems to me the lines have been greyed.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's the circumstance I had in mind too. As a medical possibility, it's fraught with problems, but it still makes an interesting moral question.

For instance, let's say she comes to her senses in the moments following the actual sin. Filled with repentance and, of course, panic, she could take measures related to her bodily posture that would affect the likelihood of conception. Isn't that a contraceptive measure, albeit an extremely inefficient one? It seems allowable in her case. Whereas, it doesn't seem that this would be a moral attitude for a married person to take.

I'm worried about the sensitivity of this topic... are we crossing the "appropriate for children" line in this thread? advice from mods would be appreciated.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='beatty07' post='1115175' date='Nov 8 2006, 04:41 PM']
I'm worried about the sensitivity of this topic... are we crossing the "appropriate for children" line in this thread? advice from mods would be appreciated.
[/quote]
I think we're maintaining a proper level of decency.


I still don't think that a doctor will go out of his way to prescribe contraceptives that aren't abortifacient. Nor would they explain to a distraught woman the mechanism of whatever drug they use. Maybe I'm too cynical.