Secularization

[Akalyte]

I dont believe Secularization is a challenge, I beleive we can beat it with Orthodoxy and Tradition. But we have to chill out with all this liberalism and
turning our churches into social places.

[cmotherofpirl]

Secularization is bad, but turning the church into a social place is good. You are too young to remember, but back in the day, the church was the center of your life. You went to catholic school, hung out with catholic friends, your mum belong to the womens groups, your father the mens organizations, you belong to cyo. On the weekends you bowled on the catholic team, played baseball on the catholic team, and went on field trips sponsored by your church. You celebrated all the holidays as a church family, in fact you were born, lived and died in a parish community.
THe parish was and should be the center of your life.

[Kosh]

Sounds awesome. Yeah, Akalyte, I 'gree, the key to combating secularism is to make Christ the center of the community again. Thats why Cathlic schools are the best.

[jwangkal]

I come from East Africa where when there are chaos in villages, people take refuge in the churches. The church is our home and should be a social place. I feel pain when practicing catholics would rather go to a professional councellor whaen they have marital problems instead of seeking advice from the Parish priest or a particular priest whom they would choose.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1117443' date='Nov 11 2006, 09:07 AM']
Secularization is bad, but turning the church into a social place is good. You are too young to remember, but back in the day, the church was the center of your life. You went to catholic school, hung out with catholic friends, your mum belong to the womens groups, your father the mens organizations, you belong to cyo. On the weekends you bowled on the catholic team, played baseball on the catholic team, and went on field trips sponsored by your church. You celebrated all the holidays as a church family, in fact you were born, lived and died in a parish community.
THe parish was and should be the center of your life.
[/quote]

yeah that's all wonderful but Catholicism is still not a social religion. i do know that communists planned on making it that way though. What I mean is, for instance many parishes build baptismal fonts in the center of the parish. Making mere humans the focus of Christian life. We need to stop putting so much focus on humans and humanity and focus more on the Eucharist. I use to go to the Shrine down here, but just couldnt take the giant Mariachi that turned the mass into a fiesta. People waving their hands in the air like in protestant churches, holding hands during the our father.etc...

What you mentioned above there's nothing wrong with that..I'm talking about distorting the meaning of Christian worship. To the point that it becomes nothing but a gathering of selfish humans who are only there for feeling.

[Kosh]

well that IS a problem, 'specially after mis-interpretations of Vatican II.

[jwangkal]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1117504' date='Nov 11 2006, 07:23 PM']
yeah that's all wonderful but Catholicism is still not a social religion. i do know that communists planned on making it that way though. What I mean is, for instance many parishes build baptismal fonts in the center of the parish. Making mere humans the focus of Christian life. We need to stop putting so much focus on humans and humanity and focus more on the Eucharist. I use to go to the Shrine down here, but just couldnt take the giant Mariachi that turned the mass into a fiesta. People waving their hands in the air like in protestant churches, holding hands during the our father.etc...

What you mentioned above there's nothing wrong with that..I'm talking about distorting the meaning of Christian worship. To the point that it becomes nothing but a gathering of selfish humans who are only there for feeling.
[/quote]

Ever imagined what heaven is like during Holy Mass? I guess it could be described as organized worship, maybe as an expression or Adoration and Love and Reverence to The Lord. We humans in our times have our own expressions of our Reverence to The Lord. Perhaps for example I would say that here in East Africa, we celebrate Mass with drums (noisy Mayhem!!) I don't know if you consider this as acceptable in your locallity.

What I'm trying to say here is that it comes down to "How best can we express our Love and Adoration to God without turning our church into a 'hel on earth' ?".

Well it's not me to decide.

[Akalyte]

Actually a parish here actually did use drums before. I dont like it and no its not acceptable here. I personally dont know how it got accepted anywhere..

[jwangkal]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1117527' date='Nov 11 2006, 07:59 PM']
Actually a parish here actually did use drums before. I dont like it and no its not acceptable here. I personally dont know how it got accepted anywhere..
[/quote]

Ever heard of The African Synod, i think when tha African Bishops met to discuss how to make the Liturgy more relevant to the African way of life. And one of the outcomes was to allow the use of african traditional music instruments in the Liturgy. Well I don't have all the facts at my fingertips. But If you happen to visit Africa you will come to discover what we view a celebration to be. Holy Mass is a celebration. Well i don't know what Church documents say about the limits. But I guess it all boils down to the heart. and there must be some control to everything so that there are no abuses.

Ever since I was born I have always known it as a normal thing to accompany Liturgical songs with drums in our churches here in East Africa. It's news to me that that is a forbidden thing in some countries! Oh , and our drums are much noisier that your Rock Drums and they are played with bare hands. and when you play them, they sound like they're taking!!

[suuran]

Well...I'd agree that, ideally, the Church building itself shouldn't be used for social purposes. But Catholicism is indeed a very, very social religion--the central institution of our religion, the mass, is public and communal, not personal and private.

Which isn't to say that you're just there for feelings and fun. If Mass becomes about feelings and fun, that ain't cool, and Lord knows plenty of bad stuff goes on. The Mass should indeed be centered around God, the Scriptures, etc., and nothing should distract you from that.

A lot of it depends on the local culture...I would agree that drums might not be a great idea in our culture, but I think the opposite might be true for African cultures. Same for dance. The Church does acknowledge these differences--in a perfect world, where everyone was a Catholic who tried to be holy, there would still be a massive variance in cultural practice.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JP3' post='1117543' date='Nov 11 2006, 12:35 PM']
Ever heard of The African Synod, i think when tha African Bishops met to discuss how to make the Liturgy more relevant to the African way of life. And one of the outcomes was to allow the use of african traditional music instruments in the Liturgy. Well I don't have all the facts at my fingertips. But If you happen to visit Africa you will come to discover what we view a celebration to be. Holy Mass is a celebration. Well i don't know what Church documents say about the limits. But I guess it all boils down to the heart. and there must be some control to everything so that there are no abuses.

Ever since I was born I have always known it as a normal thing to accompany Liturgical songs with drums in our churches here in East Africa. It's news to me that that is a forbidden thing in some countries! Oh , and our drums are much noisier that your Rock Drums and they are played with bare hands. and when you play them, they sound like they're taking!!
[/quote]
Here we have no history of drums or dance being used in our culture, so they are not used at Mass.
I would love to attend Mass in your country. Tell us more!!!!!

[jwangkal]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1117577' date='Nov 11 2006, 09:47 PM']
Here we have no history of drums or dance being used in our culture, so theyt are not used at Mass.
I would love to attend Mass in your country. Tell us more!!!!!
[/quote]

Yep! You heard me. Drums and tamborines are a norm in our Churches here in East Africa. We also have Liturgical dances, which have to be prepared before Holy Mass under the supervision of someone appointed by the parish council, just like a parish music director supervises music for the liturgy. It's all well organized and in many parishes, liturgical dancers are young girls and sometimes boys of 8 years of age or older (just like alter boys).

I hope I'm not losing the direction in the discussion of this topic.

When God created this world, he created Humans for himself, but he also created all that is in this world for the sake of humans. Sin came in and God sent His Son, who died for humans. Jesus gave the Church and sacraments for humans. So I think when you go to Holy Mass, you are not there for the Scriptures and the rites performed there, you are there for God. But all that happens at Holy Mass is for you as a human. So to participate in the worship, you are to do it with your whole self. (refer to this Sunday's Gospel: Mark 12:38-44 )

So from the African point of view, for example, singing Glory to God in the Highest has got to be joyful, with accompaniment and dance. Otherwise it turns out to be a gloomy celebration on the outward look of it (But I don't mean to say that it undermines God's grace). So to some extent we can't leave out our emotions and feelings when we come to Holy mass. I guess when you bring your offering to church, it's a sign of your whole self, and that includes your feelings too.(Reaction from you,Akalyte?) But at the end of it all, the reason why we attend Holy mass is to Fellowship with God, and that's the reason why he created us.

There is this saying that "If you ain't dancing for the Lord, then who do you dance for when you leave church?"

[cmotherofpirl]

I disagree that you cannot offer your whole self joyfully to God without dance or drums, we do it all the time.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='JP3' post='1118119' date='Nov 12 2006, 04:25 AM']
Yep! You heard me. Drums and tamborines are a norm in our Churches here in East Africa. We also have Liturgical dances, which have to be prepared before Holy Mass under the supervision of someone appointed by the parish council, just like a parish music director supervises music for the liturgy. It's all well organized and in many parishes, liturgical dancers are young girls and sometimes boys of 8 years of age or older (just like alter boys).

I hope I'm not losing the direction in the discussion of this topic.

When God created this world, he created Humans for himself, but he also created all that is in this world for the sake of humans. Sin came in and God sent His Son, who died for humans. Jesus gave the Church and sacraments for humans. So I think when you go to Holy Mass, you are not there for the Scriptures and the rites performed there, you are there for God. But all that happens at Holy Mass is for you as a human. So to participate in the worship, you are to do it with your whole self. (refer to this Sunday's Gospel: Mark 12:38-44 )

So from the African point of view, for example, singing Glory to God in the Highest has got to be joyful, with accompaniment and dance. Otherwise it turns out to be a gloomy celebration on the outward look of it (But I don't mean to say that it undermines God's grace). So to some extent we can't leave out our emotions and feelings when we come to Holy mass. I guess when you bring your offering to church, it's a sign of your whole self, and that includes your feelings too.(Reaction from you,Akalyte?) But at the end of it all, the reason why we attend Holy mass is to Fellowship with God, and that's the reason why he created us.

There is this saying that "If you ain't dancing for the Lord, then who do you dance for when you leave church?"
[/quote]

But isnt that saying the african way of celebrating mass is superior to the way the Church everywhere else celebrates? Isnt that also saying that the mass was somehow in error before this african council?

anyhow, this is about secularization.

[cmotherofpirl]

it was an interesting hijack

What do you think of my description of parish life in the 50's-70's.?

[Balthazor]

Secularization is really dangerous, because of the loss of faith amoung people due to it, and also the lessening of intensity of the faith that they do have. Both of these leave a clean slate open for all kinds of things.....in many continents it is Islam that is sweeping the land, and there are other many more malicious religions that a seeker might find themselves in.

[jwangkal]

I metioned earlier that I didn't wish to lose the direction of this debate.

Clearly, what I said about our celebration of the Holy Eucharist here in East Africa gave an impression I didn't wish to create. cmotherofpirl asked for more details, and that's what i gave. But nowhere did i mension that we are better than anyone else in the world. I didn't mean to say that our way of celebration is any superior to the way it's done anywhere else on earth or in heaven. What I meant to say was that in some places in the world, the Church has allowed the use of certain gestures in the Liturgy which help the locals to express themselves in a deeper way that corresponds with their culture. (Could this be taken to be secularization?) You feel distracted when there are all these movements around you when you are at Mass, but we down here loose concentration without all these gestures.

I also didn't mean to say that its only with drums that one can express love to God.(Maybe I should have said it in my native language,and had a translator to say it in English. Maybe then it could have come out the way I wanted it. My native language is read like Latin : ) Have you ever heard of this story about Mahatma Ghandhi (read some history of India) when he said that had he been a Catholic, knowing that God existed in the tabernacle of the Church, he would never enter a Church building with shoes on his feet, and would crawl on his belly and worship God in that position. Would you say that this way of worship is any superior to any way that it's done elsewhere in the world.(maybe an exaggeration?). Well, Ghandi being an Indian, have their own way of expressing Worship to God. So I jus wish to highlight these differences. For example, its very usual to you guys the listen to someone Rhyming Catholic lyrics. People in your parish would buy your album. In my country, it's different. Anything that sounds similar in the sense of beats or instrumental arrangement to Secular music wouldn't even be allowed into the parish compound. Music concerts for youths in my diocese are unheard of.

So do we say that whoever allowed bells to be used in church also sort of secularized the whole thing? I guess not.

and guys pray for our churches all over the world, for people who will only believe when they see a sign from "miracle workers". Here in East Africa there are all these Evangelical Ministries spreading everywhere with their gospel of preaching prosperity, telling people that Jesus died to save them from poverty. Many Catholics have fallen prey to their tricks and wandered away from the church and eventually abandoned the Christian faith all together. This is one way that Secularization has creeped into the flock and misled many.

Edited November 12, 2006 by JP3

[Seven77]

JP3 is on point. For Africa drums are used in worship. Nothing wrong here.

But----we're talking about secularization. Here in the USA we have sometimes a false sense of multiculturialism that focuses on the social AT THE EXPENSE of the spiritual. That is the issue.

Africans know what they are doing. Westerners are silly. Ask your Bishops for missionaries for us!

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1117443' date='Nov 11 2006, 10:07 AM']
Secularization is bad, but turning the church into a social place is good. You are too young to remember, but back in the day, the church was the center of your life. You went to catholic school, hung out with catholic friends, your mum belong to the womens groups, your father the mens organizations, you belong to cyo. On the weekends you bowled on the catholic team, played baseball on the catholic team, and went on field trips sponsored by your church. You celebrated all the holidays as a church family, in fact you were born, lived and died in a parish community.
THe parish was and should be the center of your life.
[/quote]


if only things were like that now....

[cmotherofpirl]

At that time, culture was supportive of religion and good behavior in general.
Times changed.