Medjugorje Apparitions

[Lil Red]

I would like to honestly discuss if the Medjugorje apparitions stand up to the principles of discernment. Please, take the principles and discuss them honestly, with facts and documents. Not just your opinion/personal experience. And please, no personal attacks, let's be charitable and honest with each other. I do not believe that the Medjugorje apparitions are for real, but I am open to change my mind. I ask you all to be open as well. Please, no document dumps either. Either link or shorten the article to pertinent information.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryd8.htm"]From ewtn.com[/url]:
[quote]Since there is today so great a number of alleged apparitions of Our Lady, and since so many become so attached to them as to almost center their spiritual lives about them, it is good to consider some principles about visions and revelations.

First, these things are definitely not part of the core of the spiritual life. St. John of the Cross, the Mystical Doctor, is very hard on these things. He goes so far as to tell souls that if a vision comes, they should at first not accept, to hold off and consider its authenticity only if it comes again. The reason he gives is this: faith holds on without seeing proof; those who want visions want to see, not to believe without seeing (cf. Garrigou-Lagrange, The Three Ages of the Spiritual Life II, 575-88 and Poulain, The Graces of Interior Prayer, 299-399).[/quote]

from the same source:
[quote]Authority of the Church

We distinguish two kinds of actions by the local bishops of places of alleged apparitions:

1)[b] a decision that it is or is not authentic.[/b] Since the Church herself has no providential protection in the area of private revelations, the bishop could be in error. We are not obliged to believe him, or even the Pope himself in such a case.

2)[b] an order to all not to go in pilgrimage to the place of the supposed visions.[/b] This is a different matter, it is an exercise of authority, which the local bishop does have. Therefore if there are violations of this order, and yet visions seem to continue, we may be absolutely certain that the visions are false. Our Lady or the Saints will never appear to promote disobedience. Even if there seem to be benefits to the devotion of people, we must still obey. And we need to recall how demanding the Church is of proof for alleged miracles. At Lourdes, after thousands of seeming miracles, the Church has checked and approved only a little over 60 cases since the start of that shrine.

If the local bishop does not approve, it is not good to say: let us wait for Rome to speak. Normally Rome respects the local bishop, and is highly unlikely to reverse his decision. Even if Rome did reverse it, we would have no guarantee, for, as we said, the providential protection promised to the Church does not cover private revelations.[/quote]

[u][b]6 Principles of Discernment Concerning Apparitions:[/b][/u] from [u]Morning Star: Christ's Mother and Ours[/u] by Oscar Lukefahr, C.M. (note: in this book, Lukefahr never discussing Medjugorje, just discusses approved apparition sites)

1. Since all the truths necessary for salvation have been revealed by Christ and expressed in the official teaching of the Church, [b]any purported revelation which contradicts Catholic dogma must be rejected.[/b] Even from a merely human point of view, it would be foolish to discard the Church's wisdom, resulting from twenty centuries of prayer and reflection, in favor of a disclosure claimed by a visionary.

2. 'You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit' (Matthew 7:16-17) [b]A genuine revelation will have good effects on people.[/b] Several cautionary notes are in order, however. We can be sure that Satan attempts to negate genuine apparitions by leading people to wrong conclusions or otherwise sowing confusion and disorder. On the other hand, we should be aware that God is capable of bringing good out of a bad situation. The fact that people are returning to the sacraments at an alleged apparition site does not necessarily mean that the apparition is genuine. The good could be a result of God's grace working independently of the purported apparition (Romans 8:28-39).

3. [b]Genuine apparitions produce a sense of humility, simplicity, and God-centeredness.[/b] Those who have been really touched by God through an apparition of Mary or other mystical experience are humbled and awed by the greatness of God. They do not claim the right to settle difficult theological disputes or to lay down guidelines in doctrinal or liturgical matters. They do not seek fame, fortune, or power, because these seem ridiculously insignificant in contrast to the God who has blessed them.

4. [b]Genuine apparitions will produce a willingness to submit one's judgment to that of the Church.[/b] Those who have really experienced God's truth know that 'the word of God is not chained' (2 Tim 2:9), and they are not afraid to submit themselves to the judgment of the Church because they know that God's Church cannot keep God's word from having its effect.

5. [b]No Final judgment can be made on ostensibly genuine apparitions until they cease.[/b] It is possible for Satan to masquerade as an angel or a saint and set a trap by speaking truth for a time. Then when the visionary and others are convinced that the apparitions are genuine, Satan can spring the trap with a message designed to confuse or destroy faith.

6. [b]Any claims of an apparition should be handled with a great deal of caution.[/b] History teaches us that reports of a genuine apparition seem to trigger counterfeits among those who are mentally ill, among frauds seeking notoriety or profit, and among those who are used as tools by Satan. History also teaches us that even saints can be mistaken in the interpretation of their visions.

[Matty_boy]

Thank you for posting. I just heard that these visions are in question, but didn't know where to research.

[cmotherofpirl]

We can all have opinions on the topic, but until the Church rules its only opinion.

[Jaime]

[quote]1. Since all the truths necessary for salvation have been revealed by Christ and expressed in the official teaching of the Church, any purported revelation which contradicts Catholic dogma must be rejected. Even from a merely human point of view, it would be foolish to discard the Church's wisdom, resulting from twenty centuries of prayer and reflection, in favor of a disclosure claimed by a visionary. [/quote]

Nothing offered by the visionaries of Medjugorje has contradicted doctrine or dogma

The reports of otherwise have been shown to be fabricated

[goldenchild17]

My only big issue with it is the message. Unless it is 100% Catholic I can't believe it's from heaven, and I don't think this is the case. Now is it a real vision? Quite possibly. But I don't see how it could possibly be from heaven, not with what some of the visionaries are recording the message to be.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1119209' date='Nov 13 2006, 06:18 PM']
My only big issue with it is the message. Unless it is 100% Catholic I can't believe it's from heaven, and I don't think this is the case. Now is it a real vision? Quite possibly. But I don't see how it could possibly be from heaven, not with what some of the visionaries are recording the message to be.
[/quote]


Let us also be sure to note (in charity) based on your traditionalist thinking on what the Church teaches.

[goldenchild17]

Note whatever you might think important . I think my phishy label makes everyone quite aware that my opinion is not to be trusted around here.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Matty_boy' post='1119023' date='Nov 13 2006, 04:33 PM']
Thank you for posting. I just heard that these visions are in question, but didn't know where to research.
[/quote]Fortunately, we don't have to do research. The Church has appointed a commission to study the matter.

[Lil Red]

sigh i was hoping to get a good discussion going

hot stuff - we have to look at all the principles, not just discern based upon one principle

[Jaime]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1119809' date='Nov 14 2006, 01:09 PM']
sigh i was hoping to get a good discussion going

hot stuff - we have to look at all the principles, not just discern based upon one principle
[/quote]


No I get that Red. I was just leading off to help get the conversation rolling.

[Lil Red]

okay, thanks for the try.

and btw, i am almost 100% in agreement with you about principle 1.

[Catholictothecore]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1119083' date='Nov 13 2006, 04:15 PM']
We can all have opinions on the topic, but until the Church rules its only opinion.
[/quote]

The funny thing is that both Medjugorje and Garabandal can not be ruled upon unitl, like it says before, they cease. But because they deal with....not so much the end of the world, but the fullfilment of May's promise to save all souls through the rosary and the scapular, they can't be ruled upon until the events they "prophesy" have taken place. Murky waters, indeed.

My advice, and this is from someone who believes because he questioned; do exactly what the steps above say. Find out if believing in the apparitions have changed lives, made people more God-centered, etc. I've heard some rumors about disobedience to the local bishop concerning Medjugorje, but again, I say, they are [i]rumurs[/i].

Try these apparitions and see if they are found wanting. Don't stop until you personally believe or don't believe. Even if they are true, there is no sin in not believing, because they are very much private revelation. So, again, I urge you to wheigh them, and you can't do that in a vaccum. You have to find out on a personal basis. Talk to people who have been to these places, and see.

I sincerely hope and pray that the Spirit of discernment is upon all of you who do.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I can see why some Fundamentalists are concerned:


"Dear children, today I invite you to ask yourself why I am with you this long. I am the Mediatrix between you and God."
July 17, 1986


The way that was said can be troubling. I am THE mediatrix. But then again, as the only female who can mediate, if you accept that position, then she is THE mediatrix. That doesn't exclude the mediator, Jesus.

Even with that position though it could be troubling to say she is THE mediatrix, as if she can do anything Jesus can. Is that accepted by the CC?

What are your thoughts on that quote in light of the principles above and CC teaching?

[Catholictothecore]

Some people say semantics aren't important. They are. Mary is the only mediatrix.

Hey, and check out here, as well... [url="http://garabandal.com"]garabandal.com[/url]

[thessalonian]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1119234' date='Nov 13 2006, 06:56 PM']
Note whatever you might think important . I think my phishy label makes everyone quite aware that my opinion is not to be trusted around here.
[/quote]


Just highliting the obvious. :

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1119861' date='Nov 14 2006, 02:00 PM']
I can see why some Fundamentalists are concerned:
"Dear children, today I invite you to ask yourself why I am with you this long. I am the Mediatrix between you and God."
July 17, 1986
The way that was said can be troubling. I am THE mediatrix. But then again, as the only female who can mediate, if you accept that position, then she is THE mediatrix. That doesn't exclude the mediator, Jesus.

Even with that position though it could be troubling to say she is THE mediatrix, as if she can do anything Jesus can. Is that accepted by the CC?

What are your thoughts on that quote in light of the principles above and CC teaching?
[/quote]

It is in fact consistent with Church teaching that Mary mediates all graces just as she brought grace in to the world she is the distibutor of that grace as well, as she is the spiritual mother of all mankind by giving birth to their spiritual renewal in the grace of Jesus Christ, their brother. Note it says "between God and man". She cannot do everything Jesus can as he earned the grace, she just passes it out so to speak per the will of God.