PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 16, 2004 Posted January 16, 2004 I was just wondering what you all thought about the command to keep the Sabbath holy. It's one of THE TEN so I figure it's really important and it's not like it was a cleanliness law so that doesn't change... why don't more people 'keep the sabbath'? do you keep the sabbath? what does this mean? and why doesn't the Church emphasize this more? So many questions...it's pretty open, just want your thoughts on this but I'm not sure if this should be under open mic or not.
ironmonk Posted January 16, 2004 Posted January 16, 2004 http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt1art3.htm Says it all. :D Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk
PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 16, 2004 Author Posted January 16, 2004 Thanks Ironmonk. That link did say it all. But now no one else will respond to my post and I will feel unpopular ;)
foundsheep Posted January 16, 2004 Posted January 16, 2004 Thanks Monk, Ive always been unsure when asked about this.
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 I do have a question. Since you believe the sabbath is a commandment for today, and since the sabbath is part of the mosaic covenant (deuteronomy), why do you not also believe every other law and command in deuteronomy must continue today?
PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 17, 2004 Author Posted January 17, 2004 I think that the moral laws have not changed but the cleanliness ones have. That is just my personal opinion, so I'm not representing the Church. But I think that everyone still follows the Mosaic law to some extent, for example, don't take the Lord's name in vain and do not covet and do not have sex w/ animals. These aren't mentioned in the NT (I don't think they are) but they still hold b/c God doesn't change and so what is right and wrong don't change. But cleanliness has nothing to do with morality. I'm sure you're going to say that the law is about morality and therefore cleanliness is moral, but I honestly don't know what to say to that. Anyone else? Help... This is why I asked the question in the first place :wacko:
Sammy Blaze Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 Not using very detailed excerpts from great theologians but my general knowledge, I'd say, The Ten Commandments are timeless commandments, and while they are a part of the mosaic covenant, they are commandments for moral living, all of them. Is circumcision important and a rule for moral living, not really..... Not coveting your neighbors wife, or lying, or stealing, or taking the Lord's name in vain however, should be and is a standard for Christian living. CM do you believe the mosaic covenant(or parts of; meaning The Ten Commandments) should continue? just asking.... time for me to return to the 'Senseless Babble' lol, Godbless everyone, ~S.
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 I don't believe the mosaic covenant applies today. Christ came and fulfilled that covenant and now we are under the new covenant. Many things are similar - you can notice 9/10 of the original ten commandments are restated by Jesus to apply to us. The sabbath is not, but I still believe there lies a principle behind it we should remember. And that is putting aside time to give to God alone.
PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 17, 2004 Author Posted January 17, 2004 why only 9/10? did Jesus only come to fulfil 1/10th of the law? I'm just wondering your opinion, not trying to argue w/ you cuz I'll admit I don't know anything :)
willguy Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 I think it depends on the nature of the commandment. Some of them, like the purification laws, were given so that man (forgive my political incorrectness) might be clean (physically and spiritually) before God. The sacrifice laws were given as a way for man to make ammends to God for his sins. Christ came to be the ultimate sacrifice and to make us clean. However, there are also those laws like the ten commandments which were given as rules to live by. I believe that most of these still apply today. I say "most of" because there are some laws that were cultural (not being tattooed for the dead for example was to set the Israelites appart from the neighboring groups).
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 9/10 because in the NT only 9/10 are ever commanded. We are never commanded to keep the sabbath. All the others are restated as applying today however.
Archangel Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 Hey all, Here's the teaching from the Catechism: 2189 "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15). 2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ. 2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106). 2192 "Sunday . . . is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 § 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247). 2193 "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound . . . to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (CIC, can. 1247). 2194 The institution of Sunday helps all "to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives" (GS 67 § 3). 2195 Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day.
Anna Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 I think the Apostles interpretted "Do this in memory of Me," as the New Way Christ left His Church of keeping the Sabbath. Pax Christi. <><
Norseman82 Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 Just as the Church in Acts 15 determined that circumcision is not necessary for gentiles, the Church throughout the ages determines how the OT laws apply today.
phatcatholic Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 SUNDAY WORSHIP Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath. Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus' resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church. Acts 20:7 - this texts shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the "first day of the week." Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship. 1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches "on the first day of the week," which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday. Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says "let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath." 2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of "another day," which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord's resurrection, which was on Sunday. Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday. Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ. Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday. from Scripture Catholic
PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 18, 2004 Author Posted January 18, 2004 I don't believe the mosaic covenant applies today. Christ came and fulfilled that covenant and now we are under the new covenant. Many things are similar - you can notice 9/10 of the original ten commandments are restated by Jesus to apply to us. The sabbath is not, but I still believe there lies a principle behind it we should remember. And that is putting aside time to give to God alone. But didn't Jesus come to fulfil the covenant, not create a whole new one? If that's true, then doesn't the 'making ourselves holy' stuff get perfected in Christ (He makes us holy) and the other moral laws still stay in place. Morality can't change, right? And if the Sabbath is a moral law, then why don't we still have to keep it (as a day set aside for God w/ no work)? If only some things are the same in the new and old covenants, who decides what is to be kept and what things discarded? I believe that bestiality (sp?) is only mentioned in the OT and not in the NT but no one would say that b/c it isn't mentioned in the NT it doesn't apply. This is a tangent, but I'm wondering what your opinion of this is: some people take the 'the principle behind it' thing and apply that to what they want to do or not do. For example, some people would argue that the laws against homosexuality are not actually against homosexual sex but against promiscuity (the underlying principle) and so monogamous homosexual relationships are okay. I realize that Paul speaks against homosexuality so this isn't an arguement, just an example. Why can't you extend that reasoning beyond what you're saying? What's your rationale behind what you say? I'm not familiar w/ biblical interpretation techniques so I need you to edumacate me Remember, just pickin' your brain here nice and friendly-like :D
Norseman82 Posted January 18, 2004 Posted January 18, 2004 If only some things are the same in the new and old covenants, who decides what is to be kept and what things discarded? The Church, per my Acts 15 example in regards to circumcision above.
Circle_Master Posted January 18, 2004 Posted January 18, 2004 But didn't Jesus come to fulfil the covenant, not create a whole new one? If that's true, then doesn't the 'making ourselves holy' stuff get perfected in Christ (He makes us holy) and the other moral laws still stay in place. Morality can't change, right? And if the Sabbath is a moral law, then why don't we still have to keep it (as a day set aside for God w/ no work)? He did fulfill the old one, and He did make a new one. A completely new one (Jeremiah 31, Deuteronomy 6, Hebrews 7, Matthew 5). I'm not sure what you think determines a moral law either. Morals are rather vague, even the definition of moral is "conforming to standards of what is right". There is no distinction between 'moral laws' and other ones in the Old Testament, nor the new to the best of my knowledge. So yes, when Christ came He brought an entirely new covenant into being commenced by His blood on the cross (covenants are always sealed by blood in the bible). The 10 commandments, at least most of them are in their purest form - i.e. the principles. The sabbath is built off of a principle however since it is not commanded in the new testament, and that principle is to trust in God, set aside time to dwell in God's presence, things like that. If only some things are the same in the new and old covenants, who decides what is to be kept and what things discarded? I believe that bestiality (sp?) is only mentioned in the OT and not in the NT but no one would say that b/c it isn't mentioned in the NT it doesn't apply. Everything applies in the Mosaic Covenant, it is up to biblical scholars to determine how it applies today since we are not under the mosaic covenant. Careful with your word choices too, there are many covenants in the Old Testament - the mosaic covenant is just one of them. The Edenic Covenant, Noahic Covenant, Mosaic Covenant, Davidic Covenant, New Covenant, Eternal Covenant are some of the other ones. This is a tangent, but I'm wondering what your opinion of this is: some people take the 'the principle behind it' thing and apply that to what they want to do or not do. For example, some people would argue that the laws against homosexuality are not actually against homosexual sex but against promiscuity (the underlying principle) and so monogamous homosexual relationships are okay. I realize that Paul speaks against homosexuality so this isn't an arguement, just an example. Why can't you extend that reasoning beyond what you're saying? It would apply to everything in the Old Testament. You can't pick and choose what applies out of the bible.
PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 19, 2004 Author Posted January 19, 2004 The Church, per my Acts 15 example in regards to circumcision above. Thanks for your help everyone. What the Church says, I agree with, and I've seen the benefits personally in my life of keeping the Sabbath, even when I don't want to keep it (I was inspired by Scott Hahn in his book Rome Sweet Home). I was more curious as to what the Church taught b/c it doesn't seem like many Catholics actually follow what the Church teaches about the Sabbath. for you Catholics out there, why is that? As far as the questioning w/ Circle goes, I'm in it more to learn what the Protestant perspective is, not to adopt it. Thanks Circle for your answers. One more question: if the Sabbath isn't so important (actually keeping it, not just the principle of giving something to God), why was it so emphasized by putting it in the 10 commandments and wouldn't giving some time to God be perfected in the giving of a whole day, what God has already 'suggested' in the OT as a good amount? All the laws can be summed up as 1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. 2. Love your neighbor as yourself. Wouldn't keeping the Sabbath fall under number 1?
Truth Posted January 19, 2004 Posted January 19, 2004 I was just wondering what you all thought about the command to keep the Sabbath holy. It's one of THE TEN so I figure it's really important and it's not like it was a cleanliness law so that doesn't change... why don't more people 'keep the sabbath'? do you keep the sabbath? what does this mean? and why doesn't the Church emphasize this more? So many questions...it's pretty open, just want your thoughts on this but I'm not sure if this should be under open mic or not. This was changed by? What reason do the CC give you for that change? Do you really think that God is pleased? The Sabbath have not change in God word. This is the first step from God. But the CC feel that it just a day of rest. Infallible is his word not the CC.
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