Prove To Me When God Gives A Child A Soul

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132764' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:24 AM']
She didn't view it as a piece of trash. She viewed it as an evil seed growing inside of her. I guess the only way I could explain it to you in terms that you can undersrtand.... she felt like the spawn of satan was inside of her. Please don't judge my friend... i'm sorry for your friend and I'm sick and tired of people getting offended at differing opinions. Nobody is refusing to open thier eyes to the truth... The problem is, is that my truth doesn't match your truth. What makes your truth better than my truth? I respect what you're girl did.... I really do. But I understand what my friend did as well. How dare you lash out at my friend and tell me that I "don't know the truth" simply because I have compassion for somebody that went through an extremely difficult situation. If your compassion is limited to your logic then I feel sorry for you.
[/quote]

First, I don't think that anyone here is blaming your friend, as there were serious mitigating circumstances which limited her culpability for the choice she made. However, no one here will say that your friend did the "right" thing. Her perception of the unborn child did not somehow transform it into something other than a child.
Women who have had an abortion after being raped, in my experience, are doubly traumatized. First, there is the assault of the rape, and then there is the assault of the abortion, usually performed by a man. Even if she freely chooses to have the abortion, rather than being dragged into a clinic (which I have seen), there is still a deep sense of violation and a repetition of the trauma of the rape. Some of these women, many years after the rape and abortion, have said that they have been able to move past the rape, but not the abortion.
It is a decision which, no matter how free she was in choosing the abortion, or how coerced she was in choosing it, almost always haunts a woman for the rest of her life.
That's why I can't accept abortion in the case of rape, not just for the sake of the child, but for the sake of the woman who was raped. It's ultimately a false compassion.

Also, on the "truth" part, how much philosophy and/or formal logic have you had?

Another great series of articles that touch on the personhood question are available via [url="http://www.communio-icr.com/ant.htm"]Communio [/url], which ran a series of articles on ANT and OAR in 2004-05.
Adrian Walker's "[url="http://communio-icr.com/articles/PDF/walker31-4.pdf"]Altered Nuclear Transfer: A Philosophical Critique"[/url] is a favorite of mine, but both his and Fr. Austriaco's articles are well worth reading.

Edited December 1, 2006 by BurkeFan

[zeyeon]

[quote name='BurkeFan' post='1132768' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:35 AM']
First, I don't think that anyone here is blaming your friend, as there were serious mitigating circumstances which limited her culpability for the choice she made. However, no one here will say that your friend did the "right" thing. Her perception of the unborn child did not somehow transform it into something other than a child.
Women who have had an abortion after being raped, in my experience, are doubly traumatized. First, there is the assault of the rape, and then there is the assault of the abortion, usually performed by a man. Even if she freely chooses to have the abortion, rather than being dragged into a clinic (which I have seen), there is still a deep sense of violation and a repetition of the trauma of the rape. Some of these women, many years after the rape and abortion, have said that they have been able to move past the rape, but not the abortion.
It is a decision which, no matter how free she was in choosing the abortion, or how coerced she was in choosing it, almost always haunts a woman for the rest of her life.
That's why I can't accept abortion in the case of rape, not just for the sake of the child, but for the sake of the woman who was raped.

Also, on the "truth" part, how much philosophy and/or formal logic have you had?
[/quote]

Again I wouldn't say she made the "right" decision either... however I do support what she did given the circumstances. Nobody is saying that Abortion is a solution to rape. It's an option. Most rape victims that get pregnant will describe abortion as a step to recoverty. It really does depend on the person... and for that reason I believe abortion should not be outlawed. You have to understand that having a child out of rape is NOT the best decision for every woman. In fact it's probably the worst decision for most women. Maybe later on down the road she will regret the abortion.... But then again maybe having the abortion prevented her from commiting suicide. You just can't use speculation in defence of the pro-life philosophy.

And i'm not sure I know what you mean about the "truth" part. are you trying to ask me what classes I've taken or something? Because I've had none. I speak my heart and believe in what I say... that alone will allow me to take on a walking Niche

Edited December 1, 2006 by zeyeon

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132776' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:46 AM']
Again I wouldn't say she made the "right" decision either... however I do support what she did given the circumstances. Nobody is saying that Abortion is a solution to rape. It's an option. Most rape victims that get pregnant will describe abortion as a step to recoverty. It really does depend on the person... and for that reason I believe abortion should not be outlawed. You have to understand that having a child out of rape is NOT the best decision for every woman. In fact it's probably the worst decision for most women. Maybe later on down the road she will regret the abortion.... But then again maybe having the abortion prevented her from commiting suicide. You just can't use speculation in defence of the pro-life philosophy.

And i'm not sure I know what you mean about the "truth" part. are you trying to ask me what classes I've taken or something?
[/quote]

Some rape victims, who are about to get an abortion may describe it as a step to recovery, but I doubt that many of them will say the same thing in a decade. The cure, in this case, is so much worse in the disease that I could not possibly wish it upon any woman, especially those dear to me. On the suicide part, as far as I know, more women commit suicide because they've had an abortion than because they've been raped.

Your equivocations about "my" and "your" truth were very odd. I suppose I was asking if you had taken any classes at all. It's not something that you have to answer, or that I asked to assault you in any way, but I was trying to get a better sense of where you were coming from in this discussion.

If you do have questions about the whole fallacy of "my truth" / "your truth" in ethical debates, I would highly recommend Alasdair MacIntyre's [i]After Virtue[/i].

[quote]Because I've had none. I speak my heart and believe in what I say... that alone will allow me to take on a walking Niche[/quote]

Okay, thanks for sharing. Some of the articles I referred to you are rather technical and presuppose a substantial background, so if there's anything I can clarify, please let me know.

Edited December 1, 2006 by BurkeFan

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132764' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:24 AM']
She didn't view it as a piece of trash. She viewed it as an evil seed growing inside of her. I guess the only way I could explain it to you in terms that you can undersrtand....
she felt like the spawn of satan was inside of her.[/quote]

A unborn child is quite the opposite.

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132764' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:24 AM']
Please don't judge my friend... [/quote]

I apologize, I will not be forced into a corner, you chose to bring your friend into this debate, I have every right to state the truth that what she did was wrong. I am sorry she did it and I am sorry I had to state the truth that what she did was wrong, but I will not be force to deny or not state the truth.

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132764' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:24 AM']
i'm sorry for your friend and I'm sick and tired of people getting offended at differing opinions. Nobody is refusing to open thier eyes to the truth... The problem is, is that my truth doesn't match your truth. What makes your truth better than my truth?[/quote]

Truth is not relative. The truth is abortion, the killing of a unborn child on purpose is always wrong and a great sin. That is not my truth or my opinion that is fact and truth.

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132764' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:24 AM']
I respect what you're girl did.... I really do. But I understand what my friend did as well. How dare you lash out at my friend and tell me that I "don't know the truth" simply because I have compassion for somebody that went through an extremely difficult situation. If your compassion is limited to your logic then I feel sorry for you.
[/quote]


I "understand" why women who have been raped get abortions, however that gives them no right to take the lives of their innocent babies lives. And I have compassion for woman who have been raped, yet that does not supersede my God given reason of right and wrong. I have compassion for the child that had to die, and I have deep compassion for the mothers that kill their babies, praying that one day they will ask Christ for His mercy and forgiveness.

[zeyeon]

I shouldn't have brought my friend into this.. you're absolutley right. So I'm done with this thread out of respect for her.

thanks for the linked articles and to those who responded decently.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I'm not adding this reply to debate with zeyeon, as it is difficult to talk reasonably about emotive topics when the people close to you have been touched by them. I just want to share an insight into the pro-life philosophy that I've received over the past year.

I have a close friend who suffers from a variety of serious mental health problems. She has chronic anorexia and severe self-harming habits. Once she cut so deep into her flesh that she severed a nerve. She can't receive surgery to hide all the disfiguring scars until she and the hospital staff are sure that she won't cut again. At the time of writing, she has been in the hospital for one year and one month. She has got no prospect of getting out any time soon.

She is fifteen years old. She was fourteen when she went into the hospital. Sexual abuse is the reason why she does this to herself. A close, trustred friend of her family began to rape her when she was only seven years old. The abuse continued until she was fourteen. Sexual assault has been a reality for her for nearly half her life. When she was little, her attacker would tell her that she was a bad, dirty child and that it was no use running to her parents about this - they didn't love her anyway. Last year, when she felt as if she couldn't take any more, she lied to her rapist and said she was pregnant. (In reality the anorexia had taken such a strong hold of her by then that she wasn't getting periods any more.) That frightened him off, but she couldn't get the memories out of her head. A few months later she took her first overdose. Her family only found out what was wrong after the suicide attempt.

This made me wonder. Imagine, what would things have been like if the pregnancy story [i]hadn't[/i] been a lie? What if she really had been carrying the child of her abuser? A mentally ill, emaciated fourteen-year-old, expecting a child.

I didn't want to think about it, but I forced myself to. And I came to the conclusion that Catholic teaching is absolutely right where abortion is concerned, although my reasoning is slightly different to that given by the others who have responded to this thread.

Abortion can't undo rape. It can't erase the past. It just tries (unsuccessfully) to sweep the past under the rug. In reality, it erases a future instead. Children who were conceived by rape are just that - children. They've done nothing to deserve death. So often abortion is presented as a means to recovery from rape, as if by removing the living reminder (the child) from the scene you can remove the abuse from your memory. It doesn't work that way. The memory has to be faced and vanquished. And to me, giving birth to a unique human being in spite of what has happened to you is a way of walking towards that. It shows your capacity to love is unhurt. (Many rape victims, including my friend, struggle to love after their experiences. My friend is extremely distrustful, for example.)

That said, I understand why women in such a horrible position would be tempted by abortion. I can say that their action is wrong, but I can't say that they are. If anything, society (including Catholics - especially Catholics) must bear a large portion of the blame for failing to be more supportive of such women. Charities like Life do a great job in providing free childcare, counselling, etc., but a great deal more is needed.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[uruviel]

[quote]I mean how would you fill the temple with people when the temple doesn't even have walls yet?[/quote]

Are you questioning God's ability to put a soul in a body that is not yet developed?

[Winchester]

Can we go on and lock this since zeye is abandoning it?

[uruviel]

oh, sure.

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='uruviel' post='1132920' date='Dec 1 2006, 01:02 PM']
Are you questioning God's ability to put a soul in a body that is not yet developed?
[/quote]

Before the thread is locked, I just wanted to add that strictly speaking, the soul is the from of the body. It is what organizes the structures and substructures, and activates everything. Our bodies are not "shells" for our souls in any way, shape or form. There is an absolute indissoluble unity. We are not "our souls". We are our bodies, though not *just* our bodies.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132786' date='Dec 1 2006, 04:43 AM']
I shouldn't have brought my friend into this.. you're absolutley right. So I'm done with this thread out of respect for her.

thanks for the linked articles and to those who responded decently.
[/quote]


I believe last night I may have let my emotion get to me, so if I offend you and the your dear friend I do deeply apologize, I should have shown more compassion but as stated I probably let my emotions get to me. The only reason I ever even replied to you was because I care for the livelihood of your soul. I care for the livelihood of every soul. Which is why I care for the unborn so very much.

I think of often the nearly 50 million people that could have been if fact where, but are not because they have been sniffed out before they we're even born. 50 million, so many souls, so many people lost.

Think of how many great men and woman that will never get the chance to be great, how many doctors, policemen, priest, nuns, firemen and hero's that could have been, but are not. How many lives could they have saved? Just one may have been able to prevented the murder of another, or even somehow prevented 9/11. Some even may have even been able to stop the ones we care about from being raped, we'll never know.

And Abortion just doesn't kill one person, it kills countless generations of people that would have been because of that person, and effects everyone that those people would have touched.

I deeply pray you will come back to the love of Christ, which is for all His children both born and unborn.

Peace in Christ!

Edited December 1, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]One could make the same arguments about a newborn infant - I doubt most infants in their first year or so are capable of sin (Stewie from Family Guy to the contrary).
In fact, the Catholic Church traditionally considers seven the "age of reason" - age at which one is morally culpable for his actions.

In fact some pro-abortion philosophers, such as Dr. Peter Singer, use the lack of significant difference between a preborn fetus and an infant to argue for legalized feticide. At least he's constistant.

And human development is long process, bodies only being fully developed in the late teens or so.
Considering at which point a human being becomes a human being at point past conception (when a new human life begins) becomes purely arbitrary.[/quote]

You do a good job showing that it's probably arbitrary if it's not a human the whole time. The problem is that not everyone espouses Singer's views. Some people will say "it's obvioisly murder at point X" (pick your poison), say 3 weeks. It's obviously not murder the first week (to them). So they err "conservatively" and say it should be illegal after one week.

Of course, you'd say to be truly "conservative" you should err on that it "might" be a human, so you have to ban it comepletely. Then again, you might be so conservative that you'd say there's no doubt it's human and so it's banned.

But simply pounding your foot and pointing out how it's arbibtary otherwise, you don't prove that it's a human.

I think a Christian could say "abortion might be murder" and think it should be banned, and not be obviously wrong.
I think a Christian could even say "abortion might be murder" and don't think it should be banned. (though I wonder about how they choose to err as they do. i know arguments, but I'd like to see others)

Can you say abortion at some stages might not be murder?
I suppose if you're Catholic you can't, as it's a matter of faith, such as you'd never say Jesus might be Lord. But it's something to think about if it's not a binding doctrine to you.

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1133017' date='Dec 1 2006, 03:22 PM']
You do a good job showing that it's probably arbitrary if it's not a human the whole time. The problem is that not everyone espouses Singer's views. Some people will say "it's obvioisly murder at point X" (pick your poison), say 3 weeks. It's obviously not murder the first week (to them). So they err "conservatively" and say it should be illegal after one week.

Of course, you'd say to be truly "conservative" you should err on that it "might" be a human, so you have to ban it comepletely. Then again, you might be so conservative that you'd say there's no doubt it's human and so it's banned.

But simply pounding your foot and pointing out how it's arbibtary otherwise, you don't prove that it's a human.

I think a Christian could say "abortion might be murder" and think it should be banned, and not be obviously wrong.
I think a Christian could even say "abortion might be murder" and don't think it should be banned. (though I wonder about how they choose to err as they do. i know arguments, but I'd like to see others)

Can you say abortion at some stages might not be murder?
I suppose if you're Catholic you can't, as it's a matter of faith, such as you'd never say Jesus might be Lord. But it's something to think about if it's not a binding doctrine to you.
[/quote]

The problem with functionalism (the view espoused by Singer, Mary Anne Warren, Michael Tooley, etc etc) is that it confuses what a thing *is* with what a thing *does*. A person isn't a person because it acts like a person, rather, a person acts like a person because it already IS a person.

[Anthony]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132522' date='Nov 30 2006, 10:21 PM']
I never said I don't care. But I'll be honest I do care more about a fully developed human than an emrbyo. I care about the embryo as far as stemcell research goes in order to save someone from suffering. If the mother decides to go through with pregnancy, then I will care about the child. To me an embryo is not a child. it can't recognize me, it cant touch me... and most importantly... it's not my sperm. If it was my kid BET YOUR LIFE I will be fighting for it... but as for other embryo's... where are thier fathers?!

Most of you guys are opposed to it philisophically, and the lack of proof of when a child becomes a child is proof of that. you're not in the womans situation.

i'm not going to deny the ability of a woman to do what she wants to her body, based on a rough idea. The mother is capable of cognizant thought. I mean if the mother is even CONSIDERING abortion... do you really think it's best for the child to have her as a mother anyway?
[/quote]


Read Evangelium Vitae. In his encyclical letter, Pope John Paul II explains the importance of human life at conception until natural death. I believe that it would have everything you are looking for.

[Noeyez]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1133003' date='Dec 1 2006, 02:55 PM']
I believe last night I may have let my emotion get to me, so if I offend you and the your dear friend I do deeply apologize, I should have shown more compassion but as stated I probably let my emotions get to me. The only reason I ever even replied to you was because I care for the livelihood of your soul. I care for the livelihood of every soul. Which is why I care for the unborn so very much.

I think of often the nearly 50 million people that could have been if fact where, but are not because they have been sniffed out before they we're even born. 50 million, so many souls, so many people lost.

Think of how many great men and woman that will never get the chance to be great, how many doctors, policemen, priest, nuns, firemen and hero's that could have been, but are not. How many lives could they have saved? Just one may have been able to prevented the murder of another, or even somehow prevented 9/11. Some even may have even been able to stop the ones we care about from being raped, we'll never know.

And Abortion just doesn't kill one person, it kills countless generations of people that would have been because of that person, and effects everyone that those people would have touched.

I deeply pray you will come back to the love of Christ, which is for all His children both born and unborn.

Peace in Christ!
[/quote]

That's peace man I ain't mad atcha. I was pretty emotionally charged over the topic too. Sorry for the new name, but some Child that called me a troll... got my other username suspended for 7 days stating I "personally attacked him"

I'm just glad most catholics are able to debate without resorting to such childish tactics to compinsate for thier lack of intellect.

[rollingcatholic]

[quote name='Noeyez' post='1133227' date='Dec 1 2006, 05:46 PM']
That's peace man I ain't mad atcha. I was pretty emotionally charged over the topic too. Sorry for the new name, but some Child that called me a troll... got my other username suspended for 7 days stating I "personally attacked him"

I'm just glad most catholics are able to debate without resorting to such childish tactics to compinsate for thier lack of intellect.
[/quote]

Why the new screen name?

[Noeyez]

[quote name='RC _' post='1133231' date='Dec 1 2006, 06:49 PM']
Why the new screen name?
[/quote]

-shruggs-

Edited December 1, 2006 by Noeyez

[rollingcatholic]

[mod]Keep it civil and respectful, please. --Era Might[/mod]

[Winchester]

Wow.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='zeyeon' post='1132491' date='Nov 30 2006, 10:40 PM']
lol @ quoting the declaration of independance. do me a favor and go read the definition of a "person" as far as this country is concerned... then get back to me.
but it is scientifically. Pro choice proponnents will argue, and provide proof, that the embryo is not aware during the first trimester.
[/quote]

Just because someone won't really feel pain while they're being killed gives no one the right to kill them. And lack of consciousness doesn't either, because that means my doctor could kill me while I'm in surgery.

As for ensoulment, there are those who believe that the soul does not exist, period. Does that mean we can kill anyone we want to kill? The fetus or embryo, depending on the stage of pregnancy is alive and human physically if not spiritually. Besides, it has completely different DNA from the mother and a different gender half the time.