The Hagia Sophia

[kenrockthefirst]

In 1453, Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks. Accordingly, what is arguably the most beautiful church building in the world, the Hagia Sopia, was converted to a mosque. This mosque was subsequently converted to a museum in 1935.

In 1453, "might made right," and to the victor went the spoils. In this case, in the "clash of civilizations," the Muslim Turks converted an important Christian site into a Muslim site. Even today, although Turkey is nominally a secular state, non-Muslims are not allowed to publicly practice their religion, own property, etc. In 1967, Israeil armies captured Arab east Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount and the Dome of the Rock, the third holiest site in the Muslim world. The Dome of the Rock was not leveled to make way for a new Temple (although certain fringe groups advocate that). In addition, from a purely military perspective, the West could easily retake the former holy places of Christendom, including the Hagia Sophia. Having said that, I completely disavow any thought or attempt of doing so. But here's my question: shouldn't the Hagia Sophia be returned to the Eastern Orthodox Church, and, more broadly speaking, shouldn't the West insist on religious liberty for all faiths in majority Muslim countries, especially considering that the largest mosque in Europe is located in Rome?

[Groo the Wanderer]

Wonder how the Islamic world would react if Israel took over the mosque in Jerusalem and reopened it as the Temple...?

Edited December 1, 2006 by Groo the Wanderer

[michaelorapronobis]

[font="Verdana"]I am Eastern Orthodox, and Hagia Sophia was originally an Orthodox Church. So if it was to be returned to Christendom (which I hope it will be) then it should go to us, as the infidelic Muslims pinched it from us. [/font]

[scardella]

Just to be devil's advocate, then shouldn't the various churches made out of pagan temples be returned to pagans?

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Michael' post='1134615' date='Dec 4 2006, 07:29 AM']
[font="Verdana"]I am Eastern Orthodox, and Hagia Sophia was originally an Orthodox Church. So if it was to be returned to Christendom (which I hope it will be) then it should go to us, as the infidelic Muslims pinched it from us. [/font]
[/quote]

Absolutely.

[quote name='scardella' post='1134663' date='Dec 4 2006, 11:00 AM']
Just to be devil's advocate, then shouldn't the various churches made out of pagan temples be returned to pagans?
[/quote]

You know, I thought of this. From a practical perspective, those religions don't exist anymore, unless we consider New Age adherents their descendants. Even if we were to consider returning those sites, who would they go to?

[Balthazor]

[quote name='Michael' post='1134615' date='Dec 4 2006, 07:29 AM']
[font="Verdana"]I am Eastern Orthodox, and Hagia Sophia was originally an Orthodox Church. So if it was to be returned to Christendom (which I hope it will be) then it should go to us, as the infidelic Muslims pinched it from us. [/font]
[/quote]

Yeah, After we sacked Constantinople in the crusades and destoyed our own bastian against Islam.
*sigh*
Hind sight is 20/20.

[track2004]

Might Makes Right. Deal with it.

(And get more might.)

[Resurrexi]

NO! It must not be returned to the schismatics! It must be returned to the Holy Catholic Church!

[musturde]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1135162' date='Dec 4 2006, 08:51 PM']
NO! It must not be returned to the schismatics! It must be returned to the Holy Catholic Church!
[/quote]

Well, technically, everything belongs to the Roman Catholic Church

I dont know why everyone gets soo picky about this topic. It's so long ago and there's no turning back. It would have been gorgeous if it was still Christian but oh well.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='track2004' post='1134999' date='Dec 4 2006, 06:29 PM']
Might Makes Right. Deal with it.

(And get more might.)
[/quote]

I disagree. Whereas the West could bi-atch slap the Turks and retake Constantinople / Instanbul, and the Hagia Sophia, what we should insist on from a moral perspective is the fair treatment of Christians in majority Muslim countries.

[track2004]

And of Muslims here and in other Christian countries?

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='musturde' post='1135347' date='Dec 5 2006, 01:03 AM']
Well, technically, everything belongs to the Roman Catholic Church

I dont know why everyone gets soo picky about this topic. It's so long ago and there's no turning back. It would have been gorgeous if it was still Christian but oh well.
[/quote]

Again, the point is that Christians should be accorded religious freedom in majority Muslim countries, up to and including, in this case, return of the Hagia Sophia as a sacred Christian site.


[quote name='track2004' post='1135636' date='Dec 5 2006, 02:12 PM']
And of Muslims here and in other Christian countries?
[/quote]

Aren't they already? As I noted, the largest mosque in Europe is located in Rome. And while there are debates, in Europe, anyway, about wearing headscarves or burqas, the last time I checked, folks in the US were free to practice whatever religion they liked, with all its distinguishing features and characteristics.

[Aloysius]

Imagine yourself being transported 500 yrs into the future only to discover Italy conquered by Islam and St. Peter's Basilica had been converted into a mosque. Imagine then secular muslims took over and turned it into a museum. It would be outrageous. it's the same situation here with Hagia Sophia in Constantinople.

Muslims in Europe have no rights to any of our holy places. The only places they used to have mosques were in spain where they unprovokingly attacked and conquered us to put mosques in. And that's what they did to turkey and the Hagia Sophia. They have no right to that place either.

Christianity has every right from an objective point of view to her holy places in Europe and throughout the Near East and North Africa. Objectively speaking, the muslims have every right to their holy places throughout the near east and in north africa; except those that they stole from us and desecrated.

We stole nothing from them. They are the unprovoked agressors in nearly 1500 years of a brutal religious rivalry in these areas. The Hagia Sophia does not, nor did it ever, belong to them. They stole it.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1135645' date='Dec 5 2006, 02:25 PM']
Imagine yourself being transported 500 yrs into the future only to discover Italy conquered by Islam and St. Peter's Basilica had been converted into a mosque. Imagine then secular muslims took over and turned it into a museum. It would be outrageous. it's the same situation here with Hagia Sophia in Constantinople.
[/quote]

Excellent analogy vis-a-vis St. Peter's. And if you look at the reverse - all the years in which Western colonial powers dominated Muslim countries, and even today with the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem - there has been no negative reciprocation by the West.

Religious freedom is, of course, an inalienable right. Certainly, instituting religious freedom in Turkey is the bare minimum requirement for EU ascension.

[beatty07]

Just walking around and praying in the Hagia Sophia is a strange two-edged experience... there's such awe at the structure and its history, but such sadness at the way that history has ended up. The govt has done a pretty good job of recovering some Christian artwork. Fortunately, the muslims had to convert the whole thing in about two weeks because the sultan said "I want to pray in here." So they didn't have time to destroy most of the mosaics and just plastered over them. On the other hand, there are 7 humongous disks hung around with verses from the koran, the windows are still muslim-style, and the muslim furnishings are still in place near where the altar should be. I saw an Orthodox Bishop visiting inside, and it was just heartbreaking.

[Resurrexi]

[quote] Religious freedom is, of course, an inalienable right. [/quote]

The only religion that is lawful to practice publicly is Catholicism, all other religions are false and therefore may only be practiced privatey.

[quote] Religious freedom is, of course, an inalienable right. [/quote]

The only religion that is lawful to practice publicly is Catholicism, all other religions are false and therefore may only be practiced privatey.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='beatty07' post='1138879' date='Dec 9 2006, 05:23 PM']
Just walking around and praying in the Hagia Sophia is a strange two-edged experience... there's such awe at the structure and its history, but such sadness at the way that history has ended up. The govt has done a pretty good job of recovering some Christian artwork. Fortunately, the muslims had to convert the whole thing in about two weeks because the sultan said "I want to pray in here." So they didn't have time to destroy most of the mosaics and just plastered over them. On the other hand, there are 7 humongous disks hung around with verses from the koran, the windows are still muslim-style, and the muslim furnishings are still in place near where the altar should be. I saw an Orthodox Bishop visiting inside, and it was just heartbreaking.
[/quote]

It is heartbreaking, and what it comes down to in terms of Turkey's bona fides as a Western nation aspirant is, do the right thing and return the Hagia Sophia.


[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1139114' date='Dec 10 2006, 02:04 AM']
The only religion that is lawful to practice publicly is Catholicism, all other religions are false and therefore may only be practiced privatey.
[/quote]

Unless we're going to do an American Taliban, folks in this country have the freedom to practice whatever religion they like. As a Catholic, of course, I believe that those religions are deficient vis-a-vis truth and salvation BUT unless I'm going to force someone to practice (if not believe), we have to allow them the freedom to worship as they choose. Of course, force and denial of freedom of conscience and religion is my main gripe with majority Muslim countries, and the point of this post in the first place.

[jswranch]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1135162' date='Dec 4 2006, 07:51 PM']
NO! It must not be returned to the schismatics! It must be returned to the Holy Catholic Church!
[/quote]
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that Orthodox Catholic relations are such that today, we are a document and a handshake away from the Patriarch of Contstaninople coming into full comunion with BXVI.

Heck, I am praying such happens when the Patriarch visits the pope in Rome.

(A number of Orthodox would not be so happy with the situation and an Ecumenical council would have to be called.)

[beatty07]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1139929' date='Dec 11 2006, 05:27 PM']
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that Orthodox Catholic relations are such that today, we are a document and a handshake away from the Patriarch of Contstaninople coming into full comunion with BXVI.

Heck, I am praying such happens when the Patriarch visits the pope in Rome.

(A number of Orthodox would not be so happy with the situation and an Ecumenical council would have to be called.)
[/quote]

well, that would have to be a pretty impressive document. It would have to address the filioque in the Creed, include a drastic development in the conception of Papal Primacy by one or both sides, address the ecclesiological issues of autocephalous Churches, completely revamp the selection of Bishops by one or both sides, address varying moral disciplines like divorce and remarriage, find a way to substantially merge the Orthodox rites with the corresponding Eastern Catholic rites, and that's just some of the biggies. The devil's in the details, as they say.

I'm very hopeful and we should definitely pray for this... but there's a heck of a lot standing in the way right now. Historically speaking, we're only just starting to talk to each other again.

To complicate it a little more, not all that many Orthodox would be super-impressed by unity between Rome and Constantinople. I imagine almost all the Russian and Greek Orthodox would be unaffected, for instance. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople actually doesn't carry much weight with them, when you get down to it. He certainly isn't an Orthodox version of the Pope.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1139114' date='Dec 10 2006, 01:04 AM']
.
The only religion that is lawful to practice publicly is Catholicism, all other religions are false and therefore may only be practiced privatey.
[/quote]

A Muslim would say the same thing, about Islam.