Catholic And Orthodox Unitification

[Balthazor]

So I am speculating.
If Catholics and Orthodox reconciled what do you think would happen?
I mean I am sure that on both sides there would be people leaving the Church.... but what exactly would the ramifications be of this?
I would be very happy personally if we reconcilled however in reality I know there would be problems.....

[Groo the Wanderer]

I would LUB it! This wound has been open too long. Methinks they would simply be another Rite in the Mother Church.

Perhaps with some semi-autonomy under the Pope? Maybe even under the Patriarch of Constantinople, who is then under the Pope?

Dunno. Let the politicians work it out.

Heal your Church Lord Jesus!

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

What would be the problem on the Catholic side? I am sure some Orthodox faithful would take issue with the move. We would probably still have remnants of Orthodox Churches hanging around.

I would really like to see the Patriarchs come back into communion with Rome. They even have claims on some of the Roman basilicas.

[kenrockthefirst]

Given the common ground - if I understand correctly - I'd imagine that such a reconciliation would really come down to issues such as order of worship, etc. The Orthodox have it going on with the "smells and bells," and some of their outward signs of worship, IMHO. Needless to say, such a reconciliation would be fantastic. Now we have to start working on the Anglicans ;-)

[Balthazor]

[quote name='thedude' post='1140440' date='Dec 12 2006, 01:36 PM']
What would be the problem on the Catholic side? I am sure some Orthodox faithful would take issue with the move. We would probably still have remnants of Orthodox Churches hanging around.

I would really like to see the Patriarchs come back into communion with Rome. They even have claims on some of the Roman basilicas.
[/quote]

Well any change can trigger dissent. I know of people who left the Church because of Vatican II, even people who left the church because of a change in Priests in their parish. you can bet there will be people that would leave over it.

But there would still probably be problems.
Many Catholics are completly unaware of the Eastern rite Church. But they could not be oblivious to this. I mean the whole Priests marrying issue would definatly bubble to the surface. Also the structure of the Orthodox church is different I am not sure how Rome would absorb them. I mean the Patriarch in Constantinople is a "first among equals" but since they have no Pope I am sure that there would be problems with suddenly finding yourself under one if youa re a patriarch or a bishop, and also for the pope or other bishops finding yourself with a completly new Humongous branch in the Church. With bishops that are not used to a pope or anyone over them.....

[beatty07]

Seems like a safe bet that the liturgical rites would remain virtually identical on both sides. I think where it would be messiest would be between eastern rite Catholics and their counterpart Orthodox, e.g., the Armenian Orthodox and Armenian Catholics. It would seem silly not to unite them into one body, but the details could be contentious.

It also seems like the reconciliation would result in the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople yielding the "first among equals" title to the Bishop of Rome. My understanding is that the Patriarchs generally accept the primacy of Rome, but object to what they consider an exaggeration of that primacy ('supremacy') that amounts to apostasy. However, it is very significant that the other Churches have not installed "their own" Orthodox Bishop of Rome. That would go against their ecclesiology completely, but it also means that they consider the Pope really to occupy his office, though he does so in a terribly corrupt way.

We're still a long way off...but it will be a great miracle of the Holy Spirit when it happens!

[jswranch]

Here is how I see unification playing out:

Patriarch of Constantinople leans over to BXVI and says, "OK I cave, I want back in and am taking bringing everything with me I can." BXVI responds, "You are absolved."

Photo op, news conferece.

Reaction from Orthodox is mixed. Some are very opposed. Other are excited/relieved. The majority does not care. Even some catholics are doubtful. Documents are drawn up, possibly through an ecumenical council. Some infighting/disagreement on documents leads to some schismatics (~up to 70%).

Documents (or new creed) finally used and settled upon by successor popes/patriarchs.

[Norseman82]

Although the existence of the Eastern rites as an existing model would certainly "grease the skids" in reunification, so to speak, I see two issues that need to be resolved:

1) The "filioque" (although I heard somewhere (maybe somewhere here) that the Eastern rites have somehow found a way to resolve it.
2) Eastern Orthodox allow 3 divorce/remarriages, I believe.

[catholicinsd]

Do Orthodox have Limbo? If not, I can tat going right out the door.

[beatty07]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1141093' date='Dec 13 2006, 12:27 AM']
Although the existence of the Eastern rites as an existing model would certainly "grease the skids" in reunification, so to speak, I see two issues that need to be resolved:

1) The "filioque" (although I heard somewhere (maybe somewhere here) that the Eastern rites have somehow found a way to resolve it.
2) Eastern Orthodox allow 3 divorce/remarriages, I believe.
[/quote]

I know this point was just made in another thread, but since it applies here as well: an interesting and somewhat surprising development in the Filioque issue occurred some years back when JPII and the Patriarch of Constantinople joined in the liturgy and spoke the Creed. JPII had no problem reciting the original Creed, without the filioque. From the Catholic perspective, the Orthodox theology (at least the most common one) is considered complementary and acceptable. See CCC 248 on this. Many Orthodox would readily accept the Catholic formulation in this spirit, though many would not!

The divorce/remarriage thing is interesting, I've heard that but I've never seen the justification, especially in terms of the Lord's words about remarriage and adultery. I hope one of our Orthodox contributors can clarify this for us.

[son_of_angels]

As regards the filioque, I really think if we simply stuck to the model agreed to by representatives of both Churches at the Council of Florence, there is no reason why the opposing perspectives could not be resolved into respecting one another's liturgical and doctrinal traditions.

However, in reunified Church, Catholics would simply have to understand the notion that the Pope is not the only Patriarch in the world. Rather, the powers which the pope now exercises, although perfectly acceptable, would need to be exercised, in diminishing capacities, by each of the patriarchs in order of their prominence.

In this model, patriarch of Constantinople would have primatial status over the Greek Church, and would be third in rank, while the patriarch of Alexandria would be president of the Oriental Churches and be second in rank. The Pope of Rome would be over the Western Churches and be first in rank. The only powers he would ordinarily exert over the other Churches would be (1) final appeal, after the other two patriarchs, (2)placement in the prayers of all the other Churches liturgies, (3)neccessary approval to all Church councils, and representation therein, (4) fraternal correction of the Patriarchs and Bishops of the whole church. His extraordinary powers, such as the definition of dogma and the absolute power over the whole function of the church would be used only rarely, and, out of prudence and by his agreement, only after having consulted the other Patriarchs.

Likewise, if one wished to appeal the decision of the Patriarch of Constantinople, then let them appeal to that of Alexandria, and, of Alexandria, to Rome. And let the Patriarch of Alexandria have the right to publish exhortations to the Churchs of Constantinople.

However, in all reality, the position of the Alexandrian Church and the Constantinopolitan Church would probably be reversed. Though this is an ecclesial error, I suppose it could be tolerated.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Sounds good to me.

Make it so!

[rollingcatholic]

I'm all for it. The more faithful in the Church, the better.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1141094' date='Dec 13 2006, 01:27 AM']
Do Orthodox have Limbo? If not, I can tat going right out the door.
[/quote]


Catholics aren't required to believe in limbo, the Pope said it was merely theological speculation. I don't believe in it. I don't see why it should be a problem.

[beatty07]

I'd rather revert to the non-filioque Creed than have two Creeds operating liturgically... do Eastern Rite Catholics use it?

And some major historical questions will have to be addressed, e.g., there can't be real unity without the Orthodox acknowledging all the Councils... this is something that isn't particularly close to happening. That will be for them, I think, a much tougher pill to swallow than Roman jurisdiction.

[toledo_jesus]

It would be neat to have a Council of Patriarchs that met to discuss things. Sort of like the college of cardinals.

You'd have the pope and the heads of the other rites in the Church, and they'd meet every year and hash out differences and it would be glorious.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='beatty07' post='1142616' date='Dec 14 2006, 10:02 PM']
I'd rather revert to the non-filioque Creed than have two Creeds operating liturgically... do Eastern Rite Catholics use it?

And some major historical questions will have to be addressed, e.g., there can't be real unity without the Orthodox acknowledging all the Councils... this is something that isn't particularly close to happening. That will be for them, I think, a much tougher pill to swallow than Roman jurisdiction.
[/quote]The filioque is not recited by Byzantine Rite
Catholics by agreement with Rome. This was explained to me by the pastor of St. Stephen's Byzantine Catholic Church. I assume the same is true of other Eastern Rite Catholics.

Two major problems I foresee are moral ones: divorce/remarriage and contraception, including the abortifacient Pill, permitted by the Orthodox in spite of the fact that they claim to be pro-life. Then there are all those councils with their definitions of doctrine. But the Pope is hopeful, and so am I!

The biggest obstacle is the one that caused the schism originally: the deadly sin of pride.

I'm ecstatic to be Catholic!

---------------------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us

[Balthazor]

So perhaps reunification would not be as far fetched as one would think?

What do suppose it would take to bring this about?

[Groo the Wanderer]

prayer, baby! prayer!


Remember what happened to the USSR when the Church started praying on it? Booyah! Edited December 15, 2006 by Groo the Wanderer

[DemonSlayer]

The local seminary already has seminarian exchange with the Greek Orthodox.