Teetotalers?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='SRMiller' post='1147975' date='Dec 23 2006, 03:18 AM']
Speaking as a former Southern Baptist, I can tell you how my church explained it. Bear in mind that this does not apply to all Protestants, or even all Baptists. My pastor was insistent that the Bible didn't really mean wine. When I continued to press it, he told me that wine was different then. I then got myself in trouble by pointing out the first vintage dates on alcohol from Egypt and other places (I'm an archaeologist).
[/quote]
yes that is that the Presbyterians I knew said as well. "It was different -- less potent" and "The water those days was not clean so they had to drink wine because it helped purify the water."

Never mind that alcohol is a diuretic ...

[SRMiller]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1148033' date='Dec 23 2006, 03:57 PM']
yes that is that the Presbyterians I knew said as well. "It was different -- less potent" and "The water those days was not clean so they had to drink wine because it helped purify the water."

Never mind that alcohol is a diuretic ...
[/quote]


Sounds about the same to me, as far as explanations go.

[scardella]

The funny thing is that I've been fairly universally told that the wine back then was STRONGER, not weaker. That was the initial reason they would mix water in with the wine (before consecration, obviously, because after, it's blood...).

[Sojourner]

Yeah, I always felt that was a dubious claim ... it just never made sense to me.

[Groo the Wanderer]

My in-laws are AofG. I remember once we went out for lunch at Chili's or something. The waiter asked if we wanted to start with any wine or margaritas. My mother in law answered "no thank you, we're Christians."

My wife doesn't drink anymore, but that's more from personal preference than from any religious aspect. I drink occasionally, but it is rare to have more than 1-2 (low tolerance) and I refuse to get drunk. That said, I lub the taste of wine, dark beers, and gin/tonic.

[Sojourner]

[url="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,945726,00.html"]Here's an interesting article from Time in 1977[/url]

Apparently Jimmy Carter ignited a bit of a firestorm over his use of wine:

[quote] Jimmy Carter has announced that he will serve nothing stronger than wine when he moves into the White House this week, and he drinks only an occasional Scotch. That temperate approach has proved a disappointment to out-and-out prohibitionists, since Carter is a devout member of the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Southern Baptists are among the driest of U.S. church groups.

But one celebrated Southern Baptist, Billy Graham, leaped to the new President's defense in a Miami Herald interview. As Graham reads his well-worn Bible, there is no doubt that "Jesus drank wine." After all, he miraculously turned six huge jars of water into wine at the wedding at Cana (John 2: 1-11). "That wasn't grape juice, as some of them try to claim," added Graham.

Not so, replied Fundamentalist Presbyterian Carl Mclntire. In his Christian Beacon, he offered an ingenious exegesis of the Cana account: "Jesus Christ never drank any fermented wine, neither did he ever make fermented wine. What Jesus did at the marriage of Cana was to make out of water the finest nonintoxicating wine that perhaps was ever made. The various combinations of the fruits of the vine can produce some delicious non-fermented drinks."

Facing a flurry of complaints, Graham then issued a 2,000-word statement further explaining his position on alcohol. The wine of biblical times was "very much weaker than modern drink," he said. "We have a free conscience before the Lord, [but] it is better for Christians to be teetotalers, except for medicinal purposes."[/quote]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='ReinnieR' post='1148024' date='Dec 23 2006, 09:44 AM']
[img]http://reinnier.com/images/beer.JPG[/img]

The front says, "Catholics, we drink beer."
The back says, "Catholics, picking up the slack of our protestant brethren since 1517."
[/quote]

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1148141' date='Dec 23 2006, 12:08 PM']
My in-laws are AofG. I remember once we went out for lunch at Chili's or something. The waiter asked if we wanted to start with any wine or margaritas. My mother in law answered "no thank you, we're Christians."
[/quote]

And you didn't order a margarita?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1148143' date='Dec 23 2006, 12:11 PM']
[url="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,945726,00.html"]Here's an interesting article from Time in 1977[/url]

Apparently Jimmy Carter ignited a bit of a firestorm over his use of wine:
[/quote]

Also, in 1 Timothy 5:3 Paul counsels to not drink water only, but also wine as good for the stomach. Now, back in Paul's time the water purification technology probably was not as good as today's, so my guess is that because the water contained pollutants, the alcohol in wine would kill those pollutants (at least I read that somewhere).

So, yes, I am in the camp that the wine in Jesus' day was indeed fermented.

[prose]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1147840' date='Dec 22 2006, 10:27 PM']
How do protestants who view alcohol as sinful reconcile the fact that Christ's first miracle was turning water into wine with thier view of alcohol?
[/quote]


[quote name='ReinnieR' post='1148024' date='Dec 23 2006, 08:44 AM']
[img]http://reinnier.com/images/beer.JPG[/img]

The front says, "Catholics, we drink beer."
The back says, "Catholics, picking up the slack of our protestant brethren since 1517."
[/quote]

Funniest thing I have ever seen!!

I totally made that my desktop!!

[SRMiller]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1148018' date='Dec 23 2006, 03:03 PM']
welcome to phatmass.
[/quote]


Thanks. I was actually on here a few years ago when I was converting, and now I'm back. I tell ya, I find more reasons to love being Catholic every day, and to see the beauty in our Church.

[quote name='scardella' post='1148131' date='Dec 23 2006, 05:51 PM']
The funny thing is that I've been fairly universally told that the wine back then was STRONGER, not weaker. That was the initial reason they would mix water in with the wine (before consecration, obviously, because after, it's blood...).
[/quote]


It was quite a bit stronger, and a bit thicker, I believe. That is why they mixed it with water regularly (not sure if that's why they did it at consecration, though). I've heard just about every other explanation during my time as a Southern Baptist, including the "weaker wine" argument.

[avemaria40]

Being Italian and German, with some Jewish ancestry, I see no problem with drinking alcohol occasionally. However, teetotaling is very admirable if you are called to it and I know there are times when it is required (i.e. if someone is an alcoholic or during the 9 mos. of pregnancy, etc. ) I intend to drink when I'm old enough but I'm not going to go crazy with it. Moderation is the key

[jmjtina]

I doubt if Italian Protestants would agree with American Protestants.....

ReinnerR, LOVE the shirt!!!! LOL

[Starets]

Back when I was a fundamentalist, the water-to-wine miracle either wasn't talked about at all or there was some way to redefine the wine as something non-alcoholic. For example some sort of raisin paste.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1149979' date='Dec 26 2006, 05:23 PM']
Back when I was a fundamentalist, the water-to-wine miracle either wasn't talked about at all or there was some way to redefine the wine as something non-alcoholic. For example some sort of raisin paste.
[/quote]
That still wouldn't work, warm weather and water [rain] added to any fruit causes the bacteria on the skin to start fermentation. Thus the annual spectacle in front of my house of pigeons drunk on the fermented mulberries.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1149979' date='Dec 26 2006, 05:23 PM']
Back when I was a fundamentalist, the water-to-wine miracle either wasn't talked about at all or there was some way to redefine the wine as something non-alcoholic. For example some sort of raisin paste.
[/quote]
Raisin paste??!!

A likely story!


I think the church my mom was raised in basically frowned on any alcohol use, too.
However, this teetotaler stuff usually believed by "Bible Christians" is definitely an Unbiblical Tradition of Men.

[scardella]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1149979' date='Dec 26 2006, 04:23 PM']
Back when I was a fundamentalist, the water-to-wine miracle either wasn't talked about at all or there was some way to redefine the wine as something non-alcoholic. For example some sort of raisin paste.
[/quote]

What is there to support that it is not actually alcoholic?

Am I correct in saying that in Acts 2:13 they use the same terminology for the wine as in John 2:9?

[jmjtina]

you know, I've never heard the word teetotalters before this thread......

[2xbob]

I am mostly against alcohol for myself. I have a family history of alcoholism so thats one strike against its use, plus most people rebel against their parents a bit, well my rebellion came in the form of avoiding alcohol, doing good in school and finding religion (It was the best a rebellion could go).

[Starets]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1150007' date='Dec 26 2006, 06:22 PM']
That still wouldn't work, warm weather and water [rain] added to any fruit causes the bacteria on the skin to start fermentation. Thus the annual spectacle in front of my house of pigeons drunk on the fermented mulberries.
[/quote]

I didn't think so