Difference Between Desire And Temptation?

[Ziggamafu]

The CCC defines lust as a desire for disordered sex (i.e. any desire for sexual sins per Church teaching). My question is this: where does temptation to lust end and actual lust begin? I had a few lustful thoughts this morning and I'm wondering if I can receive communion tomorrow. I tried to fight them off but nevertheless a "desire" was there. Before I became Catholic, I would have thought that "desire" was equal to temptation and only desires that are acted upon become sinful...

Any advice?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

My [i]opinion[/i]:

It is hard to say being a third party, but I believe a mortal sin can only be committed through a free and conscious decision. You cannot commit a mortal sin by accident. What do you mean by desire?

By the way, these situations are tough to get out of - especially in the midst of other people. When such temptation enters my mind I often just start saying to myself "Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!," etc. until I get it under control. It is hard to not get audible in public and starting flailing your arms, which would make others think you were crazy... nonetheless, sin is prevented!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1152561' date='Dec 30 2006, 09:32 PM']
The CCC defines lust as a desire for disordered sex (i.e. any desire for sexual sins per Church teaching). My question is this: where does temptation to lust end and actual lust begin? I had a few lustful thoughts this morning and I'm wondering if I can receive communion tomorrow. I tried to fight them off but nevertheless a "desire" was there. Before I became Catholic, I would have thought that "desire" was equal to temptation and only desires that are acted upon become sinful...

Any advice?
[/quote]

Can't judge hearts, but:

If you committed a mortal sin, you'd know it. That's what the Doctor of the Church St. Alphonsus Liguori says.

Lust is objectively grave matter. In order to be mortally guilty of it (and thus unable to receive communion), you would have to know that you are lusting, know that it is grave matter, and deliberately choose to do it anyway.

I would say that a "desire" as you put it is a passion. That is, your sex drive is a passion. The Church says that passions are morally neutral...it's what you do with them that matters. Sexual appetite is a good in itself. If you use it for good (in marriage, for union and procreation; outside of marriage, in chaste attraction), then you are actually using that passion for the virtue of chastity. If you use it for evil, then you are using that passion for the vice of lust. So your "desire," I think, is a passion.

Now, concupiscience wants you to use that passion for evil, so it will through images or anything else it can in your way to get you to lust. This would be the temptation. So now, from these distinctions, you can see that desire is neutral, temptation is bad. If, on the other hand, by "desire" you mean "will to lust," then it is of course bad (and, since it is willed, it would be sinful, assuming full knowledge and completely free will). Likewise, if you are simply referring to an inclination toward lust, then it is simply a flaw in your armor which you need to deal with...since you said you fought off these temptations, it seems to me that you were probably not sinning. Don't let them get you down...we all get those temptations. The more attention you give them, the worse they get.

Never, under any circumstances (save the advice of a confessor or spiritual director) allow a scrupulous conscience to keep you from Communion. Since you must have full knowledge and deliberate free will to commit a mortal sin, you will know if you committed a mortal sin. If you are not sure, then you didn't commit a mortal sin (and if you think maybe you're just convincing yourself that you're not sure, just so that you'll get off the hook, that only proves that you are even less sure of the reality). Satan wants nothing more than to keep you from the Eucharist.

God bless,

Micah

PS-Look into Scrupulous Anonymous if this is a consistent problem.

PPS-Don't get into the habit of asking what others think about your particular issues...eventually it turns into a giant mindgame where everyone's input plays off all the other input and every little nuance starts making you feel guilty. Find a single, consisten confessor/spiritual director and obey what he says and don't put any thought into it past that. Take my word for it, it doesn't get fun when you start overrationalizing.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[url="http://mission.liguori.org/newsletters/scrupanon.htm"]http://mission.liguori.org/newsletters/scrupanon.htm[/url]

From the issues I have read, I would say Scrupulous Anonymous is excellent. There is one issue in the archives that I found really helpful. It was called "Was it a Mortal Sin?" (Nov. 2005):
[url="http://mission.liguori.org/newsletters/archives.htm#SA"]http://mission.liguori.org/newsletters/archives.htm#SA[/url]

10 Commandments for the Scrupulous:
[url="http://mission.liguori.org/newsletters/scrupulosity.htm"]http://mission.liguori.org/newsletters/scrupulosity.htm[/url]

Apparently there is a book (Understanding Scrupulosity: Helpful Answers For Those Who Experience Nagging Questions and Doubts, by Thomas M. Santa, C.Ss.R.) too but I have not read it.

[brandelynmarie]

Inappropriate thoughts that pop into our heads are temptations...we may wrestle with them, but if we do not give in to them, do not give willful consent to them, then they remain temptations. St. Therese referred to temptations as a "mud" that cleanses & polishes us....purifies us & strengthens our will in order to follow Christ.

[journeyman]

other than my personal belief that lust is a grave, rather than a grace, matter, I think Raphael's advice is sound. (I'm sure it was just a typo and not a Freudian slip )

My 2 cents worth - you resisted, thus consent was lacking - thus an element of a mortal sin was absent.

Rafe's recommendation to find a sound and consistent confessor or spiritual director is excellent.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='journeyman' post='1153105' date='Dec 31 2006, 08:27 PM']
other than my personal belief that lust is a grave, rather than a grace, matter, I think Raphael's advice is sound. (I'm sure it was just a typo and not a Freudian slip )

My 2 cents worth - you resisted, thus consent was lacking - thus an element of a mortal sin was absent.

Rafe's recommendation to find a sound and consistent confessor or spiritual director is excellent.
[/quote]

Yeah, but the desire was there. Like, I wanted to indulge the fantasies but I was trying hard not to as images flashed through my mind. So what's the difference between "attraction" and "desire"? I did go ahead and take communion. I guess I just wish I had the pope in my head, infallibly ruling the morality of my mind, so I could at least know for sure when I am in a state of grace. ::sigh::

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

It seems to me that if we did not have some desire to indulge in such fantasies, we would not have to work to get rid of them. That's just not the way it is. I think you are fine from what I can tell. God bless!

[Paddington]

I like how you guys switched to saying "fantasy." Maybe we should not say "sinful desire" when it can be so easily misunderstood. But, I don't know if it is possible to always get around saying it that way. I do think that saying "sinful fantasy" is better. Temptations are so far from being fantasies for a person who is trying to be upright. My 2 cents.

Peace,
Paddington

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='journeyman' post='1153105' date='Dec 31 2006, 07:27 PM']
other than my personal belief that lust is a grave, rather than a grace, matter, I think Raphael's advice is sound. (I'm sure it was just a typo and not a Freudian slip )
[/quote]
I don't know what you're talking about.

:

It's good to be a mod.

[brandelynmarie]

I'm chuckling over the Pope in the head thing......yep, I know what you mean there Ziggamafu!

[journeyman]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1154098' date='Jan 1 2007, 10:29 PM']
Yeah, but the desire was there. Like, I wanted to indulge the fantasies but I was trying hard not to as images flashed through my mind. So what's the difference between "attraction" and "desire"? I did go ahead and take communion. I guess I just wish I had the pope in my head, infallibly ruling the morality of my mind, so I could at least know for sure when I am in a state of grace. ::sigh::
[/quote]

if it wasn't "attractive," would it be a tempation . . . your struggle reflects the Holy Spirit was in your head (or heart) . . . I'll let Raphael or another scholar verify that a state of grace means an absence of any sin, venial or mortal - my elementary understanding is that habitual grace or sanctifying grace is what allowed you to recognize the problem, and actual grace is what allowed you to beat it back. So in my book, not that my opinion has a whole lot of weight, you were eligible to receive.

(discussing this with an ordained confessor could nail this down for you)


[quote name='Raphael' post='1154546' date='Jan 2 2007, 10:51 AM']
I don't know what you're talking about.

:

It's good to be a mod.
[/quote]


that vaguely resembles an abuse of power not that I would ever think a mod would do such a thing

[Lexi06]

I think since we are human, we are going to be plagued by these thoughts. It's what Satan does to lead us to temptations. I think when we get these thoughts, we should pray fast to fight it. I think temptation is when we actually put ourselves in a situation where we aren't sure if we can fight it. A thought is harmless. we just have to keep fighting them.

[Ziggamafu]

I just thought of this; if a person is fighting off a desire to masturbate, wouldn't that almost always involve lust (i.e. desire for something sinful)? So even if a person resists masturbation, mortal sin is still committed because of the presence of lust?

I'm still confused about this. It really seems that temptations are really the same thing as desires that are not acted upon and yet the [disordered] desires are grave prohibitions anyway! So I feel that whenever I'm "tempted" I've mortally sinned because the desire was there...

[SRMiller]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1165731' date='Jan 15 2007, 04:20 PM']
I just thought of this; if a person is fighting off a desire to masturbate, wouldn't that almost always involve lust (i.e. desire for something sinful)? So even if a person resists masturbation, mortal sin is still committed because of the presence of lust?

I'm still confused about this. It really seems that temptations are really the same thing as desires that are not acted upon and yet the [disordered] desires are grave prohibitions anyway! So I feel that whenever I'm "tempted" I've mortally sinned because the desire was there...
[/quote]

Okay, I'm no expert, so if I'm wrong, someone please point that out, charitably. But I think the difference is entertaining the thought. For example, a desire enters my head, a temptation to do something I shouldn't. I can either entertain that desire in my head, while not acting on it, which would be sinful, or I can fight against it. I think if I fight against that desire, it isn't sinful, because it isn't something I'm willfully thinking of and entertaining, just something that is in my head unbidden. Does that make any sense? I tend to ramble.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I read that it is impossible to have total control over your thoughts. Things pop into your head and you have to get rid of them. You cannot sin on accident. I read a thing by Fr. Most in which he says there is merit in getting rid of a bad thought:
[url="http://catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=44"]http://catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=44[/url]
Scroll down to "Bad Thoughts."

[SRMiller]

[quote name='thedude' post='1165817' date='Jan 15 2007, 07:05 PM']
I read that it is impossible to have total control over your thoughts. Things pop into your head and you have to get rid of them. You cannot sin on accident. I read a thing by Fr. Most in which he says there is merit in getting rid of a bad thought:
[url="http://catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=44"]http://catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=44[/url]
Scroll down to "Bad Thoughts."
[/quote]

Thanks. This is what I was thinking of, but didn't know where to find it.

[Theologian in Training]

As one who, in his short span as a priest, has spent a lot of time in the confessional as both a pentitent and confessor, I think your confusion is the result of trying to see desire and temptation as the same exact thing. I don't normally put too much confidence in certain definitions, but I like the way in which dictionary.com was able to delineate between desire and temptation:

Desire - 1. to wish or long for; crave; want.
2. to express a wish to obtain; ask for; request: The mayor desires your presence at the next meeting.
–noun
3. a longing or craving, as for something that brings satisfaction or enjoyment: a desire for fame.
4. an expressed wish; request.
5. something desired.
6. sexual appetite or a sexual urge.

Temptation -

1. the act of tempting; enticement or allurement.
2. something that tempts, entices, or allures.
3. the fact or state of being tempted, esp. to evil.
4. an instance of this.
5. (initial capital letter) the temptation of Christ by Satan. Matt. 4.

Do you see the difference? A desire seems to be the fulfillment of a want or a craving and it usually has a pleasurable connotation. Temptation, on the other hand, is an enticement or allurement, that, in many cases, is specific to each of us as an individual. For some, it may be a fancy car, for others, a beautiful woman or man, etc. , but in each case, we look upon each and ultimately decide what we are going to do. Are we going to think about stealing that car because we want it, or start entertaining certain thoughts from seeing that woman or man? In each case, something is put before us that is not inherently sinful, it is what we decide to do that makes it sinful. That is the nature of our response to temptation and the dynamic of sin. It is when we entertain the thought that it can quickly move from a mere temptation to a sin.

How do we entertain our thoughts? Quite simply by allowing ourselves to be entertained by them. In other words, we derive pleasure from those thoughts, but it is a pleasure that we know we should not be indulging in, and, where that line exists, is based on how well-formed one's conscience is, and that is only something we ourselves know.

So, just to clarify a bit, if all of a sudden a thought pops into your head, from no prompting on your part, that is a temptation. The thing is what will you do with that thought, will you ignore it, let it build up, until something else happens? Will you acknowledge it, then let it go? Or will you indulge in it and let it entertain you?

I remember way back when a priest used to tell me to acknowledge those thoughts and I thought he was crazy, but I now see the wisdom in what he was talking about. For you see, if a thought pops into your head, it is clear you did not intend it, however, if you start to obessess about it, get worried about it, you have taken a temptation and turned it into a source of difficulty for you, you have given that temptation too much credit and though you are not indulging in the temptation itself, you are entertaining it in a very negative way. In other words, the temptation was meant to tempt and it did, not by what it entailed but rather by it just appearing. Yet, that is the danger as well, because then you are inferring, by how much it disturbs you, that you are above temptation and no one is. Incidentally, I have come to see that this is where those that suffer from scruples usually find themselves.

Finally, (I am sorry for being so long) a direct temptation to masturbation may not necessarily entail lust, because the truth of the matter is some people have become physically addicted to it and their body reaches a point where it becomes a "desire" for them. However, that is a topic for another day. With your particular situation, it would depend upon the surrounding circumstances (which, I would encourage you not to share on public forum and if there was nothing that you were aware of that enticed you to that temptation, then it would merely be a temptation, again, it is only if you act upon it that it becomes a sin.

I hope that helps and, again, I apologize for going so long.

God Bless

[Guest Rick777]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1152739' date='Dec 31 2006, 12:51 AM']
PS-Look into Scrupulous Anonymous if this is a consistent problem.
[/quote]

Thank you for this! I can't believe I never heard of this! Awesome.

[brandelynmarie]

Wow! Well stated! Thanks much to thedude & Theologian inTraining!