ironmonk Posted January 20, 2004 Posted January 20, 2004 (edited) http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.htm 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330 842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . . .331 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332 844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333 845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 330: LG 16; cf. NA 3. 331: NA 1. 332: LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53. 333: LG 16; cf. Rom 1:21, 25. 334:St. Augustine, Serm. 96, 7, 9: PL 38, 588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18, 118: PL 16, 297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21. God sent His only Son to be tortured, and murdered, so that man may be saved. Does anyone really think that God will cast in Hell all those who were innocent and never had a chance to hear the Gospel of Christ? We see the Catholic teachings totally in line with Scripture... Romans 2:12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus. It's about love and saving people, not about damning people. Man has no right to say who is going to hell. God Bless, Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Edited January 20, 2004 by ironmonk
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 20, 2004 Posted January 20, 2004 Man has no right to say who is going to hell. True. Thanks for the good quotes ironmonk.
hyperdulia again Posted January 20, 2004 Posted January 20, 2004 If this is in response to what I think it's in response to, Don's point was not that Ghandi is in Hell, but that the Church is nnecessary and that no matter how good ones life is if one has willfully rejected Christ and His Church then one will not spend eternity with God. We can't say who is in Hell, because we can't know culpability, and we can't know who was granted the grace of perfect contrition on their death bed.
ironmonk Posted January 20, 2004 Author Posted January 20, 2004 If this is in response to what I think it's in response to, Don's point was not that Ghandi is in Hell, but that the Church is nnecessary and that no matter how good ones life is if one has willfully rejected Christ and His Church then one will not spend eternity with God. We can't say who is in Hell, because we can't know culpability, and we can't know who was granted the grace of perfect contrition on their death bed. Nope... I had a non-Catholic on my mind... God Bless, ironmonk
God Conquers Posted January 20, 2004 Posted January 20, 2004 A Bishop once told me in response to a question that the hope of the Church is that NO ONE is in Hell. And that this could even be true. The Pope has a mural in his private chapel with a depiction of Hell. It's a hole in the ground, but you can't see into it, showing that maybe no one is there. We can not no whether anyone is in Hell, but we can pray for God's mercy for everyone.
Aloysius Posted January 20, 2004 Posted January 20, 2004 we just must seek the normative way of salvation for all that we can, and for those who we cannot bring to the normative way we hope in God's extraordinary saving.
hyperdulia again Posted January 20, 2004 Posted January 20, 2004 Nope... I had a non-Catholic on my mind... God Bless, ironmonk I know who, I think. Good job.
NewReformation Posted January 24, 2004 Posted January 24, 2004 A Bishop once told me in response to a question that the hope of the Church is that NO ONE is in Hell. And that this could even be true. The Pope has a mural in his private chapel with a depiction of Hell. It's a hole in the ground, but you can't see into it, showing that maybe no one is there. We can not no whether anyone is in Hell, but we can pray for God's mercy for everyone. Judas is in hell.
Dave Posted January 24, 2004 Posted January 24, 2004 Judas is in hell. Actually, we can't even know if that's the case. The Bible never said that Judas went to hell.
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 24, 2004 Posted January 24, 2004 Actually, we can't even know if that's the case. The Bible never said that Judas went to hell. Dante said so, that should count for something. ;)
Dave Posted January 24, 2004 Posted January 24, 2004 Dante said so, that should count for something. Dante isn't God! :P
NewReformation Posted January 24, 2004 Posted January 24, 2004 Actually, we can't even know if that's the case. The Bible never said that Judas went to hell. True, however, he probably is. And, I'm quite certaint that scripture makes it clear that there will be people in hell. For example, Christ will command the 'goats' to 'depart from Him.' Death and Hell will give up their dead, and those not found in the book of life will be cast into the Lake of Fire. What of the Pharisees in Matt 12 who committ the unpardonable sin? As well as the sorcerer Simon in Acts who, according to Church tradition, later claimed to be God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?
Brother Adam Posted January 24, 2004 Posted January 24, 2004 I'll be the first to be bewildered if Judas came to have faith between the time he committed his last sin (suicide) and his death.
PedroX Posted January 24, 2004 Posted January 24, 2004 Here is an interesting article by Avery Cardinal Dulles on the subject. At least I thought it was interesting. The Population of Hell peace...
ironmonk Posted January 25, 2004 Author Posted January 25, 2004 True, however, he probably is. And, I'm quite certaint that scripture makes it clear that there will be people in hell. For example, Christ will command the 'goats' to 'depart from Him.' Death and Hell will give up their dead, and those not found in the book of life will be cast into the Lake of Fire. What of the Pharisees in Matt 12 who committ the unpardonable sin? As well as the sorcerer Simon in Acts who, according to Church tradition, later claimed to be God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost? How can you say that he probably is in Hell? Did not Satan enter him? Was it Judas or satan that did the deed? The fact is we do not know if anyone is in Hell, all we know that those who are not written in the book of life go to hell. For all we know, all men might be written in the book of life. The point being is that we have no way of knowing because we cannot see into the hearts of men... we risk being in grave danger by judging people by their actions. No matter how horrible they are... including Osama Bin Laden... this poor man actually thinks he's doing the will of God... It's just not our place to judge or even say "probably"..... what's worse, a man who sins that does not know he's sinning, or a man that sins and knows very well he's sinning? We've all sinned that put Christ on the cross, and if we do not wish to be judged by our very own harsh judgments, we must not judge others.... no matter how "lost" someone appears. Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk
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