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Do The Elect Delight In The Torments Of The Damned?


Paddington

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Dostoevsky places the greatest question in literature on Ivan’s lips in The Brothers Karamazov: “What do I care for a hell for oppressors?”

When confronted by that question, we see what kind of Christian we really are. We can only be a Christian who imagines Heaven to be a sort of cosmic Disneyland if we somehow want there to be people in Hell.

But if we conceive of Heaven as more of a state of being, grounded in absolute and pure love, then we wouldn’t really be in Heaven if we were fine and dandy with the sufferings of others. 
St. Catherine of Siena wanted to be so united with Christ that she would stand at the gates of Hell blocking the way. Aquinas was much more right than wrong, but he was absolutely wrong on this. Balthasar’s old book “Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved” is a great book to shape our thinking here.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

The elect will delight in God's Justice, which is Holy and Goor. His Justice is meted out both to the Elect, in their salvation, and to the damned, in their torment. This is Justice and will be met with great Joy by those who love God. This is not the same as delighting in their torment; the object of delight is always Justice, never torment.

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  • 10 months later...

Seeing "guest's" admittedly twisted reply along with the quotes is one of the best arguments against the doctrine of eternal conscious torment if I ever heard one. Guest sounds like one who hasn't met Jesus, or who is yet still to be transformed by Love himself. We all are on this journey, but wishing to see someone tormented rather than adopting the heart of God that "none should perish" and that "all should come to repentance" is itself a lack of repentance and evidence of hard-heartedness. 

Wrestling with this myself has led to a pretty strong conviction regarding the universal reconciliation of all things, including the so-called "damned". I see God's punishments as restorative and corrective rather than purely retributive, even if they are "severe".

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On 12/7/2020 at 1:54 PM, Jaime said:

Era Might crossed over to the dark side?

I remember him posting that he was on the verge of going to confession and rejoining the church but was unable to for intellectual/ideological reasons iirc. This was years ago.

I could never quite nail down what he actually believed. A lot of the time it seemed purposefully opaque. But it certainly wasn't orthodox.

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On 12/9/2020 at 5:11 AM, Jaime said:

THAT WAS ERA?????

I really don't think so, I think it was an older member who hadn't been around for quite a long time.  My personal guess was Good Friday.  but they didn't say so we don't know, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Era who had been around much more recently and the style of writing was very different.

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On 1/22/2020 at 3:08 PM, Luigi said:

As PaxHominibus stated, "This is not the same as delighting in their torment; the object of delight is always Justice, never torment." [Emphasis mine] 

When it is claimed the delight is in God's Justice, I do get the feeling (rightly or wrongly) that there is praise and thanksgiving that other sinners got their deserving and that for which they had asked intrinsic to mortal sin.

On 1/22/2020 at 1:49 PM, Dogtag said:

Delighting in someone's eternal torment is pretty messed up. Nobody who is infected with divine charity could find delight in such a thing.

I very much agree.  In Heaven we are perfected in Charity to one's full capacity.  When I consider that Jesus through Love lived and cruelly died for the whole of mankind past, present and to come, I cannot imagine having any joy or whatsoever in the loss of one single soul.  Frankly, if I get to see or know about souls in torment when I am hopefully in Heaven, I simply aint gonna like it one iota :) ....considering it from my perspective at this point anyway.

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When I consider where I have really badly slipped up in my life, I know that when I arrive at Judgement, I am going to need a stupendous amount of God's Mercy.  I am so terribly thankful that His Mercy and Love is Infinite.

Hang on a minute, do I grasp what God's Glory really is and therefore what my offences really are, whether mortal or venial, against Him and His Glory?  No I do not.  I might think I grasp what God's Glory is but I would be so far from the reality it isn't funny!  I am lacking in FULL knowledge. Do I grasp what Hell actually is in reality?  I might think that I do, but I would be so far from the reality it isn't funny again!  I lack FULL knowledge again. Therefore, at the time did I have full knowledge in order to have committed sin mortally?

And so I travel on in hope of the salvation of all souls.  And if so, then I hope I am in their number.

No pious platitudes either !!!

None of the above is any excuse whatsoever to commit mortal or venial sin.  It is a philosophical type reasoning only and not doctrine or dogma, to which I fully assent.

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2 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

and not doctrine or dogma, to which I fully assent

Should read - "both to which I fully consent" i.e. doctrine and dogma.  Indeed I consent to all that The Church teaches and for life, I hope.

  I still seek to understand what I believe wherever I might be able: St Anselm "faith seeking understanding".

2 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Therefore, at the time did I have full knowledge in order to have committed sin mortally?

The above is an absolutely outstanding witness, to me, of God's Loving Mercy in what He has revealed to us and proclaimed by His Church.  But I am only sort of philosophizing or musing, pondering, not proclaiming in any way.  I could be very wrong, outstandingly wrong.

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